Naitonalized Healthcare...

[fdjake]

"I never claimed to know every law"   

NO you CLAIMED to have EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE dealing Health Insurers.  So how can a guy who's FATHER worked for an Insurance company Know about this law and it's impact......BUT YOU NEVER HEARD OF IT....With all your "EXPERIENCE"?

You're obviously having a hard time wiggling out of your State College VS Private college theory.

Your first response to this example was "let's not cloud the waters."
Translation???     I can't argue this point and WIN!!!

In realty State Colleges are a PERFECT EXAMPLE of how a GOVERMENT RUN/COST CONTROLLED program works BEAUTIFULLY for SCORES of Americans.

Your RIDICULUS point about comparing wages at ONE EXACT POINT in a persons ENTIRE lifetime is LAUGHABLE!!!    People go to College to prepare them for a LIFETIME, not for the first YEAR they graduate.  The list I provided CLEARLY shows the VALUE in a lower cost STATE  College education.  VALUE is what this entire THREAD is about.  The VALUE in our current Health Care system is being placed in the pockets of HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANY CEO's.

STAY ON POINT....The State College System is TAX PAYER FUNDED.....IT WORKS!!!   The examples I provided CLEARLY show that scores of Americans WERE NOT at a disadvantage (as YOU claim) because they attended a State college.   Just as a State cost controlled Health care system  would NOT put people that can't AFFORD our current system at a disadvantage.   MILLIONS of Americans could not afford a College Education without the Goverment controlling COSTS....Just like MILLIONS of Americans can't afford Healtrh Care NOW because it's a MARKET DRIVEN PRODUCT.   The companies SELLING Insurance DON'T WANT everyone.  Just like HARVARD doesn't want everyone.   Goverment REQUIRES a specific number of RESIDENT students are accepted into each State College.  Those Colleges could make MUCH MORE MONEY accepting OUT of State students but they have no choice in the matter.  That's a perfect example of GOVERMENT intervention WORKING!!!

A health care system based on the priciples of  Goverment COST CONTROLLS is EXACTLY what will work.....And EXACTLY what we're going to get.

You may not like that....But it's COMING!!

You asked for ANY example of a Goverment program that was less expensive than a private alternative.

I gave you.......TWO.

The first is outlined above.  Your response????

Let's not cloud the discussion.  And A Havard Grad makes more out of the shute than a State Grad.   Again.......State college provides EXACTLY what YOU asked for.....A CHEAPER alternative to a PRIVATE system.

This is a PERFECT example of a Goverment backed program providing OUTSTANDING service and VALUE to the citizens at a FRACTION of the Private competition.

The SECOND example I provided was...

THE FEDERAL FLOOD INSURANCE PROGRAM.

That one you never went anywhere NEAR. 

Federal Flood Insurance provides FIXED PRICE flood insurance to Americans at rates PRIVATE Companies can't come near.

But let's not "CLOUD THE DISCUSSION!!!!"

Wants some more HOLES or is that enough???

[PositiveOutlook]

FDjake...

"NO you CLAIMED to have EXTENSIVE EXPERIENCE dealing Health Insurers.  How can a guy who's FATHER worked for an Insurance company Know about this law and it's impact......BUT YOU NEVER HEARD OF IT....With all your "EXPERIENCE"?"

Are you really serious?...    So not only are you now claiming EXPERISE on the law YOU ALSO just looked up, and have yet to show how it works, but now FDjake, the self-proclaimed EXPERT on real estate AND stocks, cannot even address the fact that he ALSO does not know ALL THE LAWS, as it relates to his SELF-PROCLAIMED areas of expertise...  Now, when the standard of knowing EVERY LAW (especially 60-120 year old laws) FDjake is trying to apply to others is applied to himself, as usual, you live up to the liberal mindset and DO NOT WANT the standard YOU set forth applied to you...  I don't why I am even responding to this point, as the ridiculousness of your point and double-standard is OBVIOUS to everyone... 

I NEVER claimed to have "EXTENSIVE" eperience in health insurance... and that, FDjake is an out-and-out lie... I do have alot of experience dealing with healthcare insurance, both from an employee and employer perspective, dealing directly with this issue...  YOU, however, FDjake, NEVER ANSWERED the questions put forth to you on your experience with healthcare (would you like me to post them again, so you can AVOID it again, and not ANSWER them again?)... The fact that you never did asnwer, despite being asked MULTIPLE TIMES really SPEAKS VOLUMES...

You STILL haven't showed how Mccarran-Ferguson applies to Hooch's assertion - "price fixing or collusion"   &  "The president of Travelers laughed and informed him that there LEGALLY IS AN EXCEPTION FOR INSURANCE COMPANIES and this is perfectly legal for him to do so within the industry." 

Mccarran-Ferguson DOES NOT provide an EXEMPTION for price fixing or collusion, as it bows to STATE LAW unless a FEDERAL LAW specific to the insurance industry displaces it...  If you think it does... PROVE IT, and quote it from Mccarran-Ferguson, because  YOU said FDJake, that you were "able to find a document online from the U.S. Senate that CONFIRMS EVERYTHING Hooch mentioned", which would include EXEMPTION FOR INSURANCE COMPANIES for price fixing and collusion.   PROVE IT, don't just SAY it and put up another straw man... PROVE IT...


"YOU KNEW NOTHING OF THIS LAW as of an HOUR ago.. Now your going to tell us what it covers????"  - This is what summaries are for... and the summary itself disputes what you are asserting that Mccarran-Ferguson "...DOES give insurance companies EXACTLY what Hooch claims it does....  E X A C T L Y....."   Well, he said it provides an EXEMPTION FOR insurance companies for price fixing and collusion...  So, you be sure to post from the Act, where it states that "EXACTLY"...       

But since we KNOW you are not going to do this FDjake, and we KNOW to expect yet ANOTHER straw man from you INSTEAD OF ANSWERING A DIRECT QUESTION...

Here is some more reading on what Mccarran-Ferguson does and does NOT do....

http://www.iii.org/media/research/mcf/

"The act does not exempt insurers from state antitrust laws, which explicitly prohibit insurers (and all businesses), from conspiring to fix prices or otherwise restrict competition. The McCarran-Ferguson Act in no way results in any kind of restraint on competition.

Under the act, insurers remain subject to rate and form regulation in every state."

As we can see from this thread, and YOU YOURSELF HAVE SAID, pricing is NOT consistent across the board, and different from people to people and state to state.... So much for price fixing and collusion...

Now, DAZZLE us with your EXPERTISE on the Mccarran-Ferguson law....  After all, you POSTED Mccarran-Ferguson on: May 14, 2009, 11:02:29 AM and then in your subsequant post, Posted on: May 14, 2009, 06:10:12 PM, 11 hours later... you read AND said...   

"I explained what it was to you."   &    "an ACT that contains HUNDREDS of pages."

So you can read "hundreds of pages" to be able to "explain it to us" in 11 hours...    

Congress enacted the McCarran-Ferguson Act in RESPONSE TO STATES' CONCERNS that they no longer had broad authority to regulate the insurance industry in their boundaries, INCLUDING ANTI-TRUST laws...

You should THINK before you type, FDjake...  Because since you are so ready to short other's life experiences, whether they relate to a topic or not, and LAWD your experience in real estate and stocks to COVER EXPERTISE in all other subjects, I WILL read what you type and challenge you on it if it full of BS as we can see here.... 

[fdjake]

Or better YET......

You could show US how the TWO EXAMPLES YOU ASKED FOR and I provided......DON'T WORK!!!

YOU talk in circles........It's pathetic.  I know I've hit a nerve when start blaming ME for flaws in your arguments!!

And you most certainly DID claim to have extensive experience "dealing with insurance companies FOR A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS."  Those are YOUR EXACT WORDS....NOT MINE.

You asked for HOLES..........

YOU GOT 'EM.

You just don't like it when the obvious is pointed out to you.

It's sort of like a "remodeling contractor" buying a flip home and finding out AFTER he owns it that it's infested with termites!!!!

You STILL have NEVER told us what happened there??????

It's a pattern of SAYING ONE THING.........Then FORGETTING you laid it out there.  When someone points this out to you, you have a fit!!!!

It's actually amusing to watch.

[PositiveOutlook]

FDjake...

With regards to Ivs vs. State - "comparing wages at ONE EXACT POINT in a persons ENTIRE lifetime"

You obviously didn't read the article posted, because it DIRECTLY addresses YOUR assertion...  

From the article - "While graduates from all types of schools tend to increase their salaries as they progress through life, Ivy Leaguers do get a bump.

Lee offers this example: Right after graduation, the pay difference between Harvard University and University of Washington graduates is $15,000. But when those graduates hit midcareer in their 40s, the pay levels jumps to $85,000 to $125,000 -- a difference of $40,000.

“If you look at the whole career, 40-plus years, for a graduate who makes choices typical of Ivy grads, you will easily make back the cost of your education, and likely make back ten-fold the difference [in tuition from a state school].”

So, it is not "one point in time" as you assert...  I had already acknowledged that there are good state colleges when I said - "but OF COURSE, there are good public schools", right BEFORE I posted the article.

So, you are either NOT READING the posts or just not obsorbing the information...

[PositiveOutlook]

FDJake...

:"And you most certainly DID claim to have extensive experience "dealing with insurance companies FOR A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR BUSINESS."

OK, show me the post where I said I had "EXTENSIVE" experience?  As you will see where you took the above quote from,,  YOU inserted the word "extensive", which is also WHY do didn't put quotes around "extensive" above...  so again... it was an out-and-out LIE literally fabricated by YOU...  

So, you are either NOT READING the posts or just not obsorbing the information...

Nice try....

[fdjake]

Once AGAIN.....

SHOW ME how this GOVERMENT RUN system doesn't work at a LOWER COST than the PRIVATE ALTERNATIVE.

Then you can tell us how your TERMITE INFESTED FLIP turned out!!!!!

You're BEAT buddy......

GIVE IT UP........

[PositiveOutlook]

What? No post?  No proof of me saying "extensive"?  So you admit you not only lied but fabricated it... 

No PROOF that Mccarran-ferguson "EXACTLY" excempted insurance companies from "price fixing and collusion", based on your extensive reading of the law YOU YOURSELF just found...

Ah... the VERY old and irrelevant to the discussion at hand - "TERMITE INFESTED FLIP"i]... what, no "one-flip-wonder"?  I thought you expertise in real estate and stocks cover it all ESPECIALLY in a healthcare dicussion?  Otherwise, WHY even JUMP to TERMITE INFESTED FLIP"?....    

BTW, I'll be HAPPY to post an update on the progress of my project when YOU finally answer the questions on your healthcare experience, which is what I have said I would do ALL along...  so the only thing stopping you from getting that information is YOU, FDjake...  So put-up or shut-up...

I'll get to your other points in a minute addressing the actual SUBSTANCE and POINTS, NOT straw men or red herrings...

I'm happy to take the time to post them again... let me know...   


Yeah right.... I'm "beat"...   

[fdjake]

Or..................You could tell us how TWO NATIONAL GOVERMENT controlled systems DO NOT work???

But that would take away from your daily sale of  


Getting answers to questions that don't line up with your views of the world can make you look like you don't know what your talking about!!!

And you most certainly have been BEAT........BADLY!!

The MIND BOGGLING thing about this entire RANT of yours is we have a POST from a member who's   F A T H E R  worked for a Insurance company and FIRST HAND related this story to his son.  But YOU, in your arrogant, know everything way, completely DISMISS this as CAN'T BE REAL....Or "It doesn't say what Hooch said"

So I guess he was LYING to us???  Maybe his Father made up the entire story???  More likely......  His story makes YOUR entire argument look like it was written by someone that didn't have a CLUE  how insurance companies function.

[PositiveOutlook]

FDjake...

"You asked for ANY example of a Goverment program that was less expensive than a private alternative.    I gave you.......TWO.      The first is outlined above.  Your response????

I have routinely said that government plays a role in our lives, but when it comes to social programs that have to do with our finances (i.e. - Social Security, Medicare, etc,.), which is what I remember referring to, and what nationalized healthcare will be... Their record is COMPLETELY abysmmal...


"This is a PERFECT example of a Goverment backed program providing OUTSTANDING service and VALUE to the citizens at a FRACTION of the Private competition."   - FDJake, Ivy league schools are NOT the only private colleges...  BUT as we see, people attending Ivy league DO benefit MORE than state schools right after graduation and throughout their life.  Therefore, State shools provide LESS value, and that is what you are about... less of a result and benefit in the governments hands...  which is why nationalized healthcare makes sense to you...  No matter the institution, the INDIVIDUAL makes the difference, and it reminds me of that line from Good Will Hunting - "you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a fuckin' education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library" - the same thing can be said for State schools...


"THE FEDERAL FLOOD INSURANCE PROGRAM." -  I don't know lot about this program (I know, according to YOU, I am supposed to know EVERYTHING about insurance, including every law ever written on it, even if they were written 60-120 years ago) or I can't comment on it... so I will get back to you on this particular point...


With regards to "Holes", which I DID actually ask for, TWICE I referenced the same thing.... maybe third time will be the charm...



"All the government would be responsible for in the scenario I presented, is collecting the money into a sequestered account, providing vouchers that insurance companies can redeem for that account, have the health industry COMPETE for the dollars in lower cost and/or better coverage, and if the tax payer is able to get a better rate than their voucher provides for, they get it back in a refund...

By doing this, it puts the control BACK in the hands of the people and NOT the government OR the healthcare industry... and/or greatly minimizes it."



So, poke "holes" in what was ASKED to be poked holes in TWICE and now THRICE, and not get side-tracked and MAYBE this will help get things back on track to NATIONALIZED HEALTHCARE, which is what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about... 

What did you mean when you said "I have to admit.....I like some of his ideas!!"?

[christopher w]

Positive,

I believe this is what you were looking for. Although it is not a link directly to the provision that explains it. I believe this should be good enough to show you that while the McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945 may have been misconstrued by Hooch's father's boss it does in fact contain verbiage that provides for a limited anti-trust exemption which is what Jake is talking about.

In response to perceived problems related to insurance industry claims and underwriting practices following
these storms, some policymakers are offering legislation that would repeal a provision of the
McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945 that gives insurers a limited exemption from federal antitrust
laws.

The other thing you disputed was this

It immediately opens doors that a State run college does not

by using the word immediately one would assume that you were talking about

comparing wages at ONE EXACT POINT in a persons ENTIRE lifetime .

Then you did try to wiggle out of it by posting a link comparing salaries over a lifetime which you can see from the quote which I copied from you directly that you were talking about one point and not over a lifetime.

Why does it matter what Jake's experience is in the health care indutry? You asked for information on the act, and when he provided it you proceeded to immediately question his knowledge of it. If you are going to challenge everyone about EVERYTHING in which you do not agree you should probably choose your words more wisely.

[PositiveOutlook]

"And you most certainly have been BEAT........BADLY!!" - are you really THAT insecure?...

No answer on Mccarran-Ferguson and it's application fitting Hooch's post "EXACTLY" , no answer on your health insurance experience, no answer on Ivy vs. State and your assertion of "one point in time", no answer on you lying AND fabricating "extensive", No answer on your extensive knowledge of Mccarren-Ferguson after only 11 hours of reading so you could come to the INCORRECT conclusion... otherwise, provie PROOF

No answer, no answer, no answer....   and JUST like I said we knew you would... MORE straw men INSTEAD of providing PROOF of what you post...

And the only thing I haven't provided yet and will sometime over the next couple days is federal flood insurance...

So, while it doesn't really matter all that much to me if you think you are winning or losing, as I'm interested in discussing nationalized healthcare which is why I started the topic in the first place, as we can plainly see the only thing you are "beating" me on is NOT ANSWERING anything and racking up the insults instead of providing actual substance...   

[PositiveOutlook]

"Why does it matter what Jake's experience is in the health care indutry?"

You would have to have been following the thread from the begnning to understand this.. but I'll summarize it... FDjake is constantly trying to portray that because I am "one-flip-wonder", as he puts it, that somehow my EXPERIENCE is lacking in discusing not only this, but other subjects on RANDOM RAMBLINGS that have NOTHING TO DO WITH REAL ESTATE.  It is a complete non sequitor and WASTES everyone's time... The experience questions in healthcare was stated to rebutt his assertion and turn what he want to espouse on others back on himself, only this time it actually had to do with the subject at hand...


"In response to perceived problems related to insurance industry claims and underwriting practices following these storms, some policymakers are offering legislation that would repeal a provision of the McCarran-Ferguson Act of 1945 that gives insurers a limited exemption from federal antitrust laws."

Please provide the link for the above... and then I will comment on it...

"It immediately opens doors that a State run college does not" - I did not try to "wiggle" out of anything...  when he made the "one point in time" assertion in response to what I said, I just provided additional information to his ADDITIONAL assertion - "People go to College to prepare them for a LIFETIME, not for the first YEAR they graduate."... there was no wiggling involved... even the "immediately" part was correct...

"If you are going to challenge everyone about EVERYTHING in which you do not agree you should probably choose your words more wisely." - You only get somewhere BY challenging what you think on a subject...   that is WHY I asked people to poke holes in what I posted on healthcare.... and yet here we are NOT talking about the substance again...  A word here or a word there can be explained when asked about...

Let's just keep it focused to nationalized healthcare, which I've tried on numerous occassions to redirect this... 

[PositiveOutlook]

Christopher...

"when he provided it you proceeded to immediately question his knowledge of it." - actually, if you look at when he first posted it and forward, you will see that it was the other way around... I only questioned FDJake's assertion AFTER I read summaries on it on multiple sites...  I also provided supporting links... I NEVER asserted that I knew what it was from the beginning (I was the one who ASKED the question of Hooch), but it was FDJake who tried to portray knowledge on the Mccarren-Ferguson Act, after 11 hours after posting it... as if other people can't read...

Just type in Mccarren-Ferguson Act and you will see by the reading, that it DOES NOT exempt insurance companies from "price fixing and collusion", which FDJake said that it "EXACTLY" did...

Now, let's try and get back to the substance of this thread and generate some idea's....

Poke holes in THIS concept so it can be refined....

"All the government would be responsible for in the scenario I presented, is collecting the money into a sequestered account, providing vouchers that insurance companies can redeem for that account, have the health industry COMPETE for the dollars in lower cost and/or better coverage, and if the tax payer is able to get a better rate than their voucher provides for, they get it back in a refund...

By doing this, it puts the control BACK in the hands of the people and NOT the government OR the healthcare industry... and/or greatly minimizes it."


Let's be constructive and NOT insulting so it doesn't go off on another tangent...

[fdjake]

"Let's be constructive and NOT insulting so it doesn't go off on another tangent."

What "tangent" would that be.....

The one where you ramble on about nothing, accuse people of being liars, or argue over a Harvard grads pay after years out of school???

I pointed out some VERY OBVIOUS flaws in your arguments....and YOU LOST IT!!!!   

That sounds like a personality trait to me.....It sounds like a person who RE-ACTS instead of THINKS.  It sounds like someone who "claims" to be a remodeling contractor but buys his first flip and THEN finds out AFTER that it's INFESTED with termites.

These are CLEAR patterns.   ACTING or forming opinions BEFORE you have enough INFORMATION.  Which is EXACTLY what you've done in this case.  EXACTLY!!  Your RANT on McCarren-Ferguson is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of this!!! 

I'm going to PM Hooch with the Senate document I found.  Giving YOU that document will get us NO WHERE.....You'll go off on some bender and we'll spend the next DAY wasting our time.

PM sent to HOOCH.  And that document is almost WORD FOR WORD what his father told him. 

I'll send it to Chris W. too.

PM's sent.... 

If anyone else wants to take a peek just PM me and the link is on the way!!!!  It's a SENATE document with an a dedicated web address so it's the REAL THING.

Almost WORD FOR WORD what Hooch mentioned in his post!!!!!

It's actually a real eye opener!!!!

Take a look, then decide for YOURSELF!!!!!

[PositiveOutlook]

"The one where you ramble on about nothing, accuse people of being liars, or argue over a Harvard grads pay after years out of school???"

Fdjake...         here we go again....

With regards to Harvard grads/Ivy league, it is immediately after AND then as time goes on the income gap WIDENS further.... 

You have shot no holes in the concept on healthcare I presented because you are off on these other tangents...  I was actually looking forward to hearing your feedback on this if you can focus...

You ABSOLUTELY not only lied about me saying  "extensive" and the fabricating it into your subsequent posts... IT IS YOUR POST...  PROVE to EVERYONE that I am full of it...  show my post where I, not YOU, said I had "EXTENSIVE" experience... you know can't and yet you continue to go on with it.... I am certainly NOT going to leave the impression that I did say it when I didn't... I gave you a couple of opportunities to retract it, and you didn't, but pushed it even more, so If you are not going to retract it, you are going to be called on it...

It is the only issue I referenced to you out-and-out lying and fabricating on this thread, and is 100% accurate, so it is very easy for EVERYONE to look up...

Your ridiculous inanities have gone far enough...

SO LET'S CLEAR THIS UP ONCE AND FOR ALL so we can get back to the issue at hand, before we move ahead, please show EVERYONE the post where I, not YOU, said I had "EXTENSIVE" experience as your asserted and then re-asserted after being called on it...  If you can PROVE and show the post, I will stand up before EVERYONE here and ADMIT I am wrong...  No answer from you again, as has been the case up to now since you were called on it... and it confirms for EVERYONE who is telling the TRUTH and who is not...  so it will no longer be an accusation but a proven FACT either way....

But, I don't expect that will EVER happen, BECAUSE everyone ALREADY KNOWS the truth...   






P.S. - Don't post your document on Mccarren-Ferguson for my sake, post it for everyone else for the discussion...  Or if you don't want to, Hooch or Christopher can do it...  Who know's with more information, we might ammend our positions.   I know I stated from the start when I asked about it from Hooch, that I was against it...  Otherwise, lets get back to nationalized healthcare...