Naitonalized Healthcare...

[christopher w]

Hoosier,

Perhaps you need to consider California as your new home instead of Texas. The current administration is issuing new guidelines that will stop federal agents from raiding medical marijuana dispenseries as well as stop arresting medical marijuana users as long as they are following state guidelines. So two victories for you.

The first being that you can smoke your brains out and the second that the federal government is going to allow state laws to trump federal policy.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20091019/D9BE5D2G0.html

[PositiveOutlook]

Christopher,

What does that post have ANYTHING to do with Hoosier's point about Furnishedowners post (see below)...

I am glad, too, that this country is finally doing the hard talking about health care that has been so desperately needed.

I am hoping for a Federal government option because:
1. The Fed . government already runs Medicare, VA Medical care, etc.  They know how to do a national program.

Are you saying that the above programs are NOT  full of fraud, waste and abuse???  If you do, then not only are you in disagreement with Obama and the Dem's but also a MAJOR factor in paying for this ridiculousness...

Remember, Obama et al are saying they are going to end HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars of fraud, waste and abuse from these programs.   With all that WASTED money, they obviously DON'T know how to do national programs...  and noone is holding them ACCOUNTABLE...

Now, we all KNOW that this is NOT going to happen (they had DECADES - both sides - to do so), so once it becomes law, the money is going to have to come from somewhere...  and yet you still somehow think this is NOT going to cost you more???  Kinds negates one of the MAIN reasons for doing this...   Why do you think Harry Reid came out and said we were talking $2 TRILLION DOLLARS instead of the $900 BILLION they are holding onto to the one CBO estimate that was NOT based on the legislative language?

So how does your slight towards Hoosier add to the discussion in any way...  peronally, I wish people would spend more time on the TOPIC instead of petty attacks...

[Bluemoon06]

LOLZ!  This alone right here, shows you have NO CLUE!  Seriously, they KNOW HOW to run these programs?  Omg, are we being punked or something?  Are you trying to make us laugh?  Those programs are the most fraud/corrupt/overspent programs EVER. Yet, they KNOW HOW to run them?!  LMFAO.. Thank you Furnished for the laugh.  (I assume you were kidding)

Hoosier4life2005 and PositiveOutlook You guys really don’t have any idea how big the world you live in is do you?  What you don't take into account is scale.  These programs are very large.  In any program there will be some amount of fraud and corruption.  When you look at numbers you have to normalize them.  Like say 6 errors per hundred acts (that would be 6% for you drop outs and home schoolers out there).  Since most people generally didn’t learn statistics in school, they don’t really understand numbers.  If I tell you that the post office loses 5,000 letters per month.  You would say that is a lot of mail.  It is a lot of mail unless you put it into context.  If you compare it to the 4 billion pieces delivered that month, you will see that it is statistically non existent.

I can tell a story about a person that didn’t get notified that they had won some prize because the post office lost the notification and consequentially their dog died, but in actuality the mail system is really good.  These huge programs run very well for their size.  By and large people go in and get treated…that is what they are supposed to do.

[PositiveOutlook]

Buemoon06,

You example of the Post Office brings the case full-tilt...  the USPS LOST 2.8 BILLION in 2008, and is forecasted to LOSE another 7.9 BILLION in 2009, aside from having more employees than the defense department...  The private delivery market EXISTS, at a PROFIT, because the USPS is inefficient...  So now, just like what will happen with the "public option", as has happened with Medicare, Medicaid, etc...  their LOSSES will be covered by the TAXPAYERS...

What you don't seem to understand is that ALL the government healthcare programs LOSE MONEY...  cost 8-10 times MORE than they were PROJECTED to cost...  ADD that scale to the numbers being bantered about...

And now, the people who this is supposed to be helping, the uninsured, will now be REQUIRED to get health insurance or pay a FINE (tax)...  Add to that, the program DO NOT cover everyone, so who gets the boot?  And on top of that, they will CONTINUE to get their care through ER's, etc. which is NOT added into their projected costs...

ADD to that, is the INCREASED PREMIUMS that will PASSED TO THE CONSUMER, for the BILLIONS in INCREASED TAXES... 

ADD to this that a "public option" would be administered by GOVERNMENT employees, who MAKE MORE than the private market, which will ADD to the costs...

I agree, you fail to take into account the SCALE of this...  If Medicare were so great, 90% of the people on it would not NEED supplemental insurance...

We are getting ready to spend TRILLIONS to go from 85% insured to 90% insured...  BTW, the same uninsured will REMAIN uninsured until 2013 to 2015 under these plans, while they COLLECT INCREASED TAXES, FINES, etc... That number ALSO is not included in their costing forecasts...  How does ADDING TRILLIONS to the costs over the EXISTING PROGRAMS save money?

You are DELUDING YOURSELF... 

[christopher w]

Positive,

To be honest I could care less what you think. But since you asked first of all Hoosier likes the wacky tobacky and second of all he is all about state's rights trumping federal guidelines unless it is specifically outlined in the constitution. So I thought he would get a kick out of that link. I notice you are posting in the middle of the day and you don't have a job that requires a computer. Taking another day off from working?? Those houses aren't going to finish themselves you know.

[PositiveOutlook]

Chrisotpher,

"To be honest I could care less what you think."

Christopher, when it comes to your slights against other people instead of addressing the topics on hand... I could care less also what you think...  when you have an option on the subject at hand, that is another mattter...  You have an intellect, try using it for something besides slighting people...

" But since you asked first of all Hoosier likes the wacky tobacky and second of all he is all about state's rights trumping federal guidelines unless it is specifically outlined in the constitution. So I thought he would get a kick out of that link."

Yeah, I'm sure everyone reading that post thought you were out to amuse him...    

"I notice you are posting in the middle of the day and you don't have a job that requires a computer. Taking another day off from working?? Those houses aren't going to finish themselves you know."

LOL... dude, you have no clue... many remodelers have laptops nowadays... We actually use programs like estimating, bookkeeping, drafting, product sourcing, contact management, faxing, emailing, etc...  ON THE ROAD...    Gee, we even have these cell phone thingies with all sorts of cool functions...   

You know the time you spend on here, which is MOSTLY during work hours, and just about the SAME amount of time on Random Ramblings vs. the Finance forum, you could INCREASE your sales, and maybe save a few bucks to get off the sidelines and INVEST in your IDEAL market in Texas...  It's all a numbers game Christopher...

You never told us why a mortgage broker, with all your "experience" and contacts, in an IDEAL market such as Texas is sitting on the sidelines...  Like I said, you remind me of one of the Guru's who doesn't believe in his product enough to be in it themself, but rather makes money off those who do...

Thanks for adding nothing again to the conversation...  again! 

[PositiveOutlook]

Back onto the subject at hand...

Despite having the media in his pocket, control of Congress, the Presidency, Obama et al are not able to make the sale...

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform

The MAJORITY of people do NOT want this by a 12-point margin, with SENIORS, against it 2 to 1...  so don't worry liberals, the fact that the people do NOT want this, means it will pass...

From the article...  "The numbers have been remarkably stable throughout the debate. With the exception of bounces following presidential television appearances, support for the plan has stayed in a very narrow range from 41% to 46%. Currently, 24% Strongly Favor the legislative effort and 42% are Strongly Opposed."

What is scary in this article - "Support is highest among voters under 30, the age group least likely to use the nation’s health care system. These generational dynamics also have been stable and consistent over the past several months."

We are raising a generation who looks to the government, instead of themselves...

[christopher w]

You never told us why a mortgage broker, with all your "experience" and contacts, in an IDEAL market such as Texas is sitting on the sidelines...  Like I said, you remind me of one of the Guru's who doesn't believe in his product enough to be in it themself, but rather makes money off those who do...

Coming from an admitted failure like yourself I find it funny that you would even question me about anything. Seriously what does the fact that I choose to focus my energies on doing my job correctly (you should take note of that Mr. I am a rehabber but can't finish my own rehabs) has to do with the price of tea in china but since you asked... I am overwhelmed with business because of the market that I am in and because of my "experience" and "contacts" have more referrals than I can realistically handle not to mention that the new construction market has kicked back in so why would I want to take on the headache of rehabbing (I am sure you know what I am talking about as you are obviously struggling with your own)? In addition to that I am active in my church as well as coaching multiple sports for my children. I know when enough is enough and don't want to bite off more than I can chew. You might want to take note of that Mr. Failed Real estate Investor/Rehabber. Now instead of reinforcing the fact that you are a failure why not get off the computer and start working on your rehabs?

[Bluemoon06]

Buemoon06,

You example of the Post Office brings the case full-tilt...  the USPS LOST 2.8 BILLION in 2008, and is forecasted to LOSE another 7.9 BILLION in 2009, aside from having more employees than the defense department...  The private delivery market EXISTS, at a PROFIT, because the USPS is inefficient...  So now, just like what will happen with the "public option", as has happened with Medicare, Medicaid, etc...  their LOSSES will be covered by the TAXPAYERS...

What you don't seem to understand is that ALL the government healthcare programs LOSE MONEY...  cost 8-10 times MORE than they were PROJECTED to cost...  ADD that scale to the numbers being bantered about...

And now, the people who this is supposed to be helping, the uninsured, will now be REQUIRED to get health insurance or pay a FINE (tax)...  Add to that, the program DO NOT cover everyone, so who gets the boot?  And on top of that, they will CONTINUE to get their care through ER's, etc. which is NOT added into their projected costs...

ADD to that, is the INCREASED PREMIUMS that will PASSED TO THE CONSUMER, for the BILLIONS in INCREASED TAXES... 

ADD to this that a "public option" would be administered by GOVERNMENT employees, who MAKE MORE than the private market, which will ADD to the costs...

I agree, you fail to take into account the SCALE of this...  If Medicare were so great, 90% of the people on it would not NEED supplemental insurance...

We are getting ready to spend TRILLIONS to go from 85% insured to 90% insured...  BTW, the same uninsured will REMAIN uninsured until 2013 to 2015 under these plans, while they COLLECT INCREASED TAXES, FINES, etc... That number ALSO is not included in their costing forecasts...  How does ADDING TRILLIONS to the costs over the EXISTING PROGRAMS save money?

You are DELUDING YOURSELF... 

PositiveOutlook, You are actually right because everybody is right.  If you don’t define the problem then any answer is right.  You say the post offices job is to make money.  Using that definition since they lost money they are not successful.  I say their job is to accurately deliver mail.  They do that well so they are successful.  This is the same problem with healthcare.  Is the goal to deliver healthcare to the masses or to cut the cost of healthcare or what? 

For example the military has one job to kill people and break things.  The goal is not to kill people and break things in a cost efficient manner.  You pay what it takes to get the job done.  Now if you want healthcare that covers everybody then it will get done by the government, but if you want the cost to be low, then you probably won’t get that.

I can’t argue with you and frankly you can’t argue with me because we both showed up at the stadium but one came ready to play football and the other came to play soccer.  We need a problem definition.

[PositiveOutlook]

Chrisopther,

"I am overwhelmed with business because of the market that I am in and because of my "experience" and "contacts" have more referrals than I can realistically handle not to mention that the new construction market has kicked back in so why would I want to take on the headache of rehabbing (I am sure you know what I am talking about as you are obviously struggling with your own)?"

THAT'S your reason???  Then WAKE UP Christopher... you are so "overwhelmed" by all this business, that you spend just about the SAME amount of time on Random Ramblings as you do the Finance forum...  DURING WORKING HOURS...  Look at your stats...

What are you doing wasting time online with someone you "could care less" what I think??

You don't need to actually do the work rehabbing a property, all you have to do is manage it...  with all your contacts, you don't have rehabbers accessible to you?  With all your money from your "overwhelming" amount of referrals and new construction market, you should be raking it in... so what's the REAL reason?...

"Now instead of reinforcing the fact that you are a failure why not get off the computer and start working on your rehabs?"

Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds to on the one hand say the reason you aren't investing in an IDEAL market is becuase you are "overwhelmed" with business at work. and then are spending time online in Random Ramblings DURING WORK HOURS???

You have a weird definition of "failure"...   

"In addition to that I am active in my church as well as coaching multiple sports for my children."

Oh, I totally relate to that...  Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, Marching Band, Art Class, Church, Basketball, Winter Guard, Oddysey of the Mind, Jump-Rope club, etc.... it seems never ending at times....   that said, if I can run two jobsites, and work on investment house myself, surely you can take advantage of your ideal market...

[christopher w]

Positive,

I gave you the real reason and once again it is like talking to a brick wall.    I don't want to rehab houses. I don't want the headaches. There is that clear enough for you? God you are thick. You are in the business and still can't get it done. Why would I want to take time away from doing the job that I enjoy and that pays very well to do something that I really did not like. I can "rake it in" doing other things. I am in the process of assembling some of my high net worth customers and starting a small local HML. DO YOU GET IT NOW???

I have a great job that provides very well for my family. My wife has a great job and we choose to invest our money in the stock market, mutal funds, etf's, etc... in otherwards things that will provide for us in the future. You on the other hand have invested in broken down houses, missed large glaring problems(termites??), and can't seem to get them done. My investments work for me whether I touch them or not.

As for me posting here it takes 5 seconds to smack down your inane rambling and I need something to take my mind off of work. Just because you AVOID trying to make a better life for yourself and your family does not mean the rest of us are doing the same thing by posting here. Seriously man get to work on those houses. You have proved it time and time again that you are avoiding the real work that goes into these projects. You are the perfect example of why rehabbing houses is not for everyone.

If I want to mess with Hoosier a bit what business is it of yours? As my grandmother used to say "Mind your own beeswax". If Hoosier is upset he is a big boy and can let me have it. I don't think he needs you to fight his battles. You have enough trouble fighting your own battles.

[PositiveOutlook]

Bluemoon06,

"PositiveOutlook, You are actually right because everybody is right.  If you don’t define the problem then any answer is right."

We agree...

"You say the post offices job is to make money."

No, I didn't say they had to make money... I said they are LOSING BILLIONS, which WE will have to pay for... 

"Using that definition since they lost money they are not successful. I say their job is to accurately deliver mail.  They do that well so they are successful."

So your definition of success is to deliver mail accurately even if they LOSE BILLIONS in the process that we have to pay for?...  Do you work in government by chance? 

"This is the same problem with healthcare.  Is the goal to deliver healthcare to the masses or to cut the cost of healthcare or what?"

Healthcare is ALREADY delivered to the masses.. so I guess it is a success according to your definition structure...

If the goal is to cut the cost of healthcare, that can be done WITHOUT doing this legislation... it does not take legislation to identify and cut fraud, waste and abuse...  Open up access to the over 1300+ health insurance companies across state lines and get them to compete against each other... offer wellness incentives (see Safeway example)...  To give you an idea, the MOB has been moving towards Medicare / Medicaid as their choice of crime, as the payout is MUCH higher, and the fines and prison terms are less...  quite an interesting cost/benefit analysis...

This is one the reasons WHY this "deficit neutral" thing is ridiculous...  if they COULD have done it, they WOULD  have done  it already over the past decades... They STILL can... they don't need new legislation to do it...  But in order to SELL this, they can't affect peoples own insurance costs by raising them beyond what they were going to be raised anyway...  They KNOW this, as you can't ADD TRILLIONS to an existing system and NOT increase their costs...  There's not enough rich people to go around, and the business just PASS the tax increases along to EVERYONE ELSE...  So when you hear of a tax increase to an industry, look at who that industry serves, and THAT'S who is going to pay...

"For example the military has one job to kill people and break things.  The goal is not to kill people and break things in a cost efficient manner."

Of course it is, otherwise, we'd still be paying for $20,000 toilet seats... Military spending should receive the same fraud and waste oversight as everything else...

"You pay what it takes to get the job done."

Getting a job done and doing it cost efficiently are not mutually exclusive, otherwise there is no need for oversight, and cost / benefit analyses...

"Now if you want healthcare that covers everybody then it will get done by the government, but if you want the cost to be low, then you probably won’t get that."

What do you think Obama et al are selling to the public?...  Exactly that...

"I can’t argue with you and frankly you can’t argue with me because we both showed up at the stadium but one came ready to play football and the other came to play soccer.  We need a problem definition."

That was an interesting way to put that, but the problems we are being told that need to be addressed don't need the solutions they are putting forward...  there are alternatives that DON'T cost TRILLONS to accomplsh the same goal...

[Hoosier4life2005]

No offense taken Chris about the wacky tobacky. lolz.  I assume you were just having fun righhhhht Chrissy boy?

I dont smoke the wacky tobacky anymore btw, so that law wouldnt interest me much personally.

Texas>Cali still, even though I like the idea of State Laws trumping Fed Laws!

[PositiveOutlook]

Christopher,

"I gave you the real reason and once again it is like talking to a brick wall.    I don't want to rehab houses. I don't want the headaches."

Rehabbing is only ONE aspect of this business...  you, with all your "expertise" can't figure out a way to make money in your ideal market of Texas??? 

"There is that clear enough for you? God you are thick. You are in the business and still can't get it done. Why would I want to take time away from doing the job that I enjoy and that pays very well to do something that I really did not like."

Some people refer to it as investing...  but it's clear now your use for REICLUB is trolling for business... not a problem, but you may want to consider spending less time in Random Ramblings if that's the case...  Then again, you are "overwhelmed" with referrals, etc...  right?

"I can "rake it in" doing other things. I am in the process of assembling some of my high net worth customers and starting a small local HML. DO YOU GET IT NOW???"

How could I "GET IT NOW", when this is the first time you brought it up...  Go for it...
but I'll believe THAT when you post your HML on Reiclub.  Until then, just words...

"I have a great job that provides very well for my family. My wife has a great job and we choose to invest our money in the stock market, mutal funds, etf's, etc... in otherwards things that will provide for us in the future."

So the stock market was better for you over the past 17 months than real estate???  Hmmm...

"You on the other hand have invested in broken down houses, missed large glaring problems(termites??), and can't seem to get them done. My investments work for me whether I touch them or not. "

Large glaring problems....  LOL... nice try...  it was so "glaring" that a CERTIFIED inspector, AND the town inspector didn't get it...  but we KNOW why... it was hidden...  Broken down houses are WHY I got a great deal and WHY I will receive a double-digit return...

"As for me posting here it takes 5 seconds to smack down your inane rambling and I need something to take my mind off of work."

So it takes you 5 seconds to read and type a response??? That's AMAZING... unfortunately, your STATS (i.e. - reality) tell a different story...   I agree it's easy to type a response, which makes your original point about positing all the more deluded and inane...

"Just because you AVOID trying to make a better life for yourself and your family does not mean the rest of us are doing the same thing by posting here."

How am I "avoiding" making a better life for me and my family???  Nice try...  You know right now reading this AND posting you are AVOIDING your referrals, and construction market leads, right?

"Seriously man get to work on those houses. You have proved it time and time again that you are avoiding the real work that goes into these projects. You are the perfect example of why rehabbing houses is not for everyone."

Just words...  I'll be quite happy with the return on my investment... 

"If I want to mess with Hoosier a bit what business is it of yours?"

Then start your own thread or PM him... make it public by posting it, and you INVITE comment...  is this your first time in a Forum?...  Now we've gone from "amusing" him to "messing" with him...  Thought so...  I wasn't so much "defending" Hoosier as I was trying to make the point of STAYING ON TOPIC, instead of the slights and insults you have become known for...

"As my grandmother used to say "Mind your own beeswax". If Hoosier is upset he is a big boy and can let me have it. I don't think he needs you to fight his battles. You have enough trouble fighting your own battles."

Yeah Christopher, you're beating me real bad...      I don't keep track of who's winning and who's losing, but word to the wise, the one trying to portray they are winning is usually the one losing,...

I bring it up BECAUSE it is HIGHJACKING a thread...

[Bluemoon06]

Now Roland Burris is the most important Senator.  He is going to force the public option. 




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33383578/ns/politics-capitol_hill/