Naitonalized Healthcare...

[Vader]

First of all PO---Right On!
Vader--be thankful the 1st Amendment doesn't have an IQ standard.

Yeah, that's it, I'm a big dummy because I don't make long winded posts taking sides...My gripes are with PO's attitude so mind your own business. You have no idea what my IQ is, but that was a cute comment. Don't come at me again, I have no problem with you. I lurk on this site and post occasionally, its what I do.

[PositiveOutlook]

This is getting interesting...

I still think we will benefit more from others who are Pro national healthcare and their favorite country, before getting into the nuts and bolts of it. 

But, one thought to consider, everyone is required to have auto insurance, no government program, and you'll note that people STILL have to come up with the payment (under the threat of loss of license and fines in alot of states, mind you), even though the government isn't doing it for them, and there is much more COMPETITION for the money, resulting in lower premiums.  Why no cry for government funding of car insurance?  An accident, just like a hospitalization/illness can also financially devastate someone.  Something to ponder...

Among the reason(s), IMHO (although there are many), that the government should not be the one to receive the check are...

1. Government  would collect the healthcare money AS A TAX going into the general fund... which, just as with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc. will be manipulated to increase taxes.  As an example, Social Security takes in more money than it needs each year (because the SS tax you are paying is not going into anything, but right back out the door, and over your lifetime, provides a 1.2% ROI - doesn't even cover COL), but we are constantly hearing how it is isn't sufficient (and have been since the inception).  So really, with government accounting tactics, they are basically using it as tax raising tool for other programs.  Out and out fraud... Can you imagine this on a much larger scale with nationalized healthcare? 

2.  Administrative costs - the government wastes a tremendous amount of resources on administration, and this fact alone, IMHO, makes it unable to do what they say they WANT to do.  They always "promise" to do better, but it almost never happens.  Can you imagine this compounded by adding 1/7th of the economy to its responsibilities? *shudder*

3. They have not proven they are up to the task.  We should demand that they get the current systems up to the level they promised (for DECADES now BTW) - Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, etc. before we would even CONSIDER just hadning it over to them... do we want to add a national version of this with healthcare?

4. There are over 2 million people employed in the health-insurance industry, and they would have to be absorbed by the government.  Is anyone here really going to argue that government employees don't make more money than private citizens (CEO's aside)... I'm talking the workers...  This alone would also increase costs

5. It would be a monopoly - All the contributing factors that people consider when switching providers would be STRIPPED from you.  YOU NO LONGER HAVE A CHOICE...  Think about how people want to have AT&T and other "monopolies" broken up, and the supporting reasons for it, and those were just s few companies... now think about it on a national scale... If you get upset with your insurance company (i.e. government), and don't want to give them your business anymore, you won't have another insurer to go to.  Have a complaint about coverage (decreased services for example), being that you cannot go anywhere else, who are you going to complain to now?  It is harder to sue the Federal Government (IF they will even allow it).  Imagine the backlog that would create... PLUS another level of administration that would have to be added, at (you guessed it), a higher cost.

BTW, FDJake, the reason that 5000 got that rate was because of the pool and trust me, they offset it with increases in other areas for existing customers and then once they have the 5000 in place, they raise their rates over time.  That's why rates increase up to 12% per year.  So that perceived 50% is a loss-leader, and subsidized by everyone else... those actuaries make good money for a reason...  Another factor that comes into play is demographics, existing relationships with hospitals in that demographic (i.e. - money funneled to their hospital), among other considerations when putting those type of programs together.

Other than that... interesting post FDJake...  if it were only as simple as a money transfer...

[fdjake]

This isn't an easy topic and I agree with you...Handing over my money to a Goverment that has done such a lousy job handling what we ALREADY give them isn't my idea of a perfect fix....But...what we have now is just not working.

Your auto insurance analogy is interesting.  I'm a Firefighter so I see car accidents way to many times in a shift.  The overwhelming majority of SERIOUS accidents are caused by drug addicts or drunks.  Most have NO INSURANCE, NO LICENSE, NO REGISTRATION.  We have laws that say you MUST have all three.  But it NEVER stops these nit wits.

The real tradegy is the affect it has on the innocent people they crash into.  There's a lot of people in this country that are struggling.  We're all in agreement on that.  Job losses, job cut backs (hourly work week) and on and on.....If you want to see a REAL tragedy....Go to a car accident when a person with ONLY LIABILITY insurance on their car gets CRUSHED by some idiot with NO INSURANCE.  That type of accident .....Is one of the reasons for BANKRUPTCY in this country.
The vistim in this scenerio is a working guy who is running an older second car, he only insures it for liability because the car is worth about $3000.  How many of US are doing the same thing with an old WORK TRUCK????   The victim gets crushed by a HEROIN ADDICT that FELL ASLEEP at the wheel.  This exact accident happened 4 months ago in my district.  Compound fractures of this guy's TIB/FIB, collapsed lung, and multiple large lacerations. 

All this and NO HEALTH INSURANCE.......The guy was working 2 part time jobs because he had been laid off from his construction job.
I know this because he came by the Station a few months later to thank us for saving him cutting him out of the car. (Big time blood loss at the scene)

I see this stuff all the time.  I understand PO's point about helping these people...But the realty is this stuff is happening EVERYDAY to hundreds of thousands of people.  This poor guy, through NO FAULT of his own, could EASILY lose his house over this. 

The JUNKIE who hit him went to jail.......For the 27th TIME (no BS)!!!!!   That JUNKIE is actually BETTER taken care of than the VICTIM......This POS will get 3 hots and a cot, medical care, dental care, even DRUG COUNCILING in there!!!!  FOR FREE!!!!  (at least to him, certainly not to ME)

What the hell is wrong with this country????

[phlegmaticjay]

This is just MY take on this.....You can agree with it or disagree, that's fine.

What is a HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANY???

Think about this for a minute....

They make...........NOTHING.  They aren't actually TREATING anyone.  They're not INVENTING new medications, they're not staffing hospitals. 

So what DO they do???

*They collect MONEY from business and indivduals. (Gee.... doesn't the U.S. Goverment do that too?)

*They set pricing for Doctors, Hospitals, procedures, medications.

*They determine WHO can get what care, at what price,  and what medications those people can get.

Jake,

You are right--to a point.  Insurance companies don't produce a TANGIBLE product.  But they do produce a product.  It is a policy.  And depending on what people want to pay, the scope of coverage on those policies will vary.   You can get policies that will pay 100% of everything with minimal headache, but it will cost out the nose.  Point being, with a free market people can shop around for their health insurance, just as we do for our auto, whole life, term life, accident, long-term care, etc.

Using the same argument that insurance companies don't produce anything, or staff hospitals or clinics,  invent medications,etc., what does a landlord do?   Okay, (s)he buys a SFH and fixes it up.  But then they, just sit there and collect rent.  You really didn't produce anything.  There is nothing new being invented.  Just money being collected so someone has a place over their head.  Now, somebody in DC says "well, that's not fair that people should have to pay that much in rent, so we must punish the landlords and provide free housing for our poor and middle-class citizens." Or better yet, the gov't decides it is going to pay everybody's rent--but they are not going to pay more than $500 a month and you are not allowed to charge anymore than that.  And now there is waiting lists for rentals and people are going homeless because they don't want to take their life into their own hands and go buy a house or seek out their own shelter.  Instead they will sit there and piss and moan, about not being able to get into the free apartment or house.

And then the next target is cars.  Dealerships don't produce anything, etc, etc. I want my free car.  Why, those big bad dealerships are making too much money for just selling cars.  

Anyway, hopefully the point is getting across.  Where does it stop?  In a socialist nation, it doesn't.  Until that nation collapses in on itself.  BTW, most of us wouldn't get cars.  Bicycles, maybe?



BTW,  Jake, I didn't realize you were a firefighter.  Thanks for what you do. My wife is a PT paramedic so I hear alot of what you describe.  And me and her have about the same argument as this thread.

[fdjake]

In understand your points.  They make sense. This isn't an easy fix, that's for sure.

I've said for YEARS that car companies are INSANE for STILL having the dealership system.

Think about this.....

You want a new Ford......You go to your local FORD OWNED STORE...No different than SEARS, TARGET, ect.....The Ford store has one or two AT THE MOST of each model...Just for demos....You test drive them, pick out your options, and FORD delivers your new car right to YOUR HOME.....They do this with FURNITURE, WASHERS, TV's.....But to buy a car you need to go down to a independently owned dealership and engage in hand to hand combat for a price, a payment, options, and everything else.  All so that dealer can make a profit.  Your 100% right....That dealer didn't build that car...He didn't build the FACTORY....And almost ALL THE COMPLAINTS car MAKERS get are about their DEALERS!!!!   It's mind boggling....But....It's a 100 YEAR OLD SET UP......We haven't up dated HEALTH CARE IN DECADES EITHER!!!  The last time I purchased a WASHING MACHINE I scanned a few fliers, checked online, went down to the store and bought one, never had to NEGOTIATE ANYTHING......The next day my WASHING MACHINE was delivered to my home!!

Service could be handled by Factory owned Service Stores.  The cars are under WARRANTY ANYWAY...    Ford or Toyota are actually PAYING dealers to fix THEIR cars!!!!......TAKE OUT THE MIDDLE MAN.  Imagine how genuinely ENJOYABLE shopping for a car would be????  NO SALESMEN, NO PRICE BS, just like buying an APPLIANCE....That's all a car is today....It's another appliance you own.  And.....instead of the car MAKER trying to screw you in the service department because they make NOTHING on selling you the car.....A Manufacturer owned service center would concentrate on KEEPING YOUR BUSINESS!!!!!  Imagine that???  A car company actually interested in seeing it's customer HAPPY and COMING back...

Now that's     C R A Z Y   T A L K !

Health Insurance Companies are making more PROFIT than they have in the HISTORY of that business.
Do we think it's just a fluke that those EVER INCREASING annual SALARIES and PROFITS are coming at the exact same time Health care costs are increasing at rates never before seen????

I think Insurance companies need a new MOTTO.....Instead of "First try is always....DENY"

"GREED IS GOOD" seems more up to date!

[phlegmaticjay]

I guess I just don't understand the anger at a company making profits.  If the healthcare system could go back to a truly free market system, rates would come down, coverage would get better, doctors and hospital staff could start being paid what they are worth again.  It just seems so elementary to me.  Company A charges $1000 a month for polcy covering PQR with $500 family deductible.  Company B charges $700 a month for the same.  People go to Company B.  Now along comes a new player, Company C, that decides it wants to make its money in volume, so it sells the exact same coverage with a $300 family deductible at $400 a month.  And they decide to concentrate on customer service.  And their policy count surges.  Well now, Company A and Company B either have to recognize the paradigm shift and adjust their ways of doing business or perish. The only gov't intervention would be to demand (this hurts more than you know-using the words demand and gov't in the same sentence without the word citizen-but I digress) that there be some pro pre-existing condition clause. 

[phlegmaticjay]

Something else that gets my craw, is I might not have an issue with a government run healthcare plan if the following criteria was met:

1. The plan would have to be entirely voluntary.
2. The plan would have to be able to survive off its OWN revenues.  No subsidization from
     the taxpayers.
3. The gov't would have to play by fair free market rules to sell its policies.  In other words
     not regulating its competition into extinction.
4. Its policies would have to be sold through traditional insurance agents or through an online
    format.  (We do NOT need any more gov't employees.)

I think that would be a fair compromise for all parties. 

[PositiveOutlook]

I dunno', unions with Job banks, making the cars more expensive for everybody seems pretty greedy to me...  whoever thought of that concept, no work and ALL pay?  That took b@lls that's for sure...  but the union exec's are among the top 5% earners in the country, and with their own private golf courses...

There are CEO's in ALL industries (including the auto industry) making huge amounts of money, so the healthcare industry is not unique in that regard, nor do I believe it is a major reason for the costs involved.  There are only a certain number of CEO's. The hidden cost of regulation (and administrative costs to comply), frivolous lawsuits, LAWYERS, over-prescribing for fear of lawsuits, etc. have more to do with the costs than CEO pay...

Pro national healthcare supporters, anymore examples?...

[fdjake]

There's NEVER been a shortage of greed in this country.

And if simply adding COMPETITION to the mix would fix everything it should all be running perfectly right now.

We HAVE competing companies.

We had competing companies last summer when OIL went to $147/barrel...There's a free market at work.  Why did OIL hit those levels?????

GREED.......that's why........Hedge funds POURED into the oil commodity markets and the prices took off like a rocket.  We now know for a FACT that they poured in becasue the RUSH TO THE DOOR created a virtual COLLAPSE in oil prices.  In July of 2008 oil hit $147/barrel....By November that price was $30!!!!....Remember all the BS we were sold on WHY that happened.   PEAK OIL......DEMAND......Refinery capacity.....I guess we opened a hell of a lot of refineries in that 5 month period huh???
Free markets are the greatest invention of mankind.  IN SOME CASES.
Certain things should simply be regulated and prices fixed.   That's MY opinion.   I'm sorry if I see a problem with a Health Care CEO making $125 milllion in a year when he's charging his customers a rate that increases by 15%/year.   Yet pays out LESS to Doctors, Hospitals, Pharmacy's.....You do not have to be a GENIUS to see WHERE that money is going.
This country is now producing FEWER DOCTORS and NURSES than at ANYTIME in the last 40 years.  That's is DIRECTLY tied to the way INSURANCE COMPANIES changed our health care system.  They WILL make a profit....Nothing else matters. If Dr's and Nurses have to cut medications, deny tests, work MANDATORY overtime. (there's a Brillant solution)  Let's MAKE Nurses work 16 hours straight.  Hey, they're only giving out medications and treating the sickest of the sick!!!

Letting markets do their thing sounds GREAT!!!  Most of the time it works.....EXCEPT when your dealing with something people CAN NOT DUE WITHOUT.

Maybe we could get rid of our Military too......Let INSURANCE Companies run that!!!!  Hey, they know how to calculate RISKS right....Or better yet we could just let PRIVATE ENTERPRISE handle the whole thing.  Blackwater tried......Oh yea.....That didn't go well did it???

The Health Care Providers in this country DON'T Compete in an open market.....They dictate how much they'll pay to a Doctor,  How much they'll pay to a Hospital, How much they pay for Drugs.   Then they play GAMES with all of it.   We heard Furnish tell about how an insurance company wouldn't pay for the 8 pills his mother needed / month only for 4.  The problem was the pills only came in packs of 8.  Real easy way to collect that money and NEVER PAY IT OUT!!!

That's a BEAUTIFUL BUSINESS!!!

Maybe our car makers could figure out a way to SELL you a car.....But never actually DELIVER it to you!!!!!!!  Then they could pay themselves $125 MILLION a Year.....Just like Dollar Bill McGuire!!!!!!!

[PositiveOutlook]

As we go along, this is making my point and I hope that this is starting to crystalize...

FDjake, the criticisms that you are listing for the healthcare industry, valid or not, you currently have a CHOICE in that you can take your business elsewhere. If the government were to take it over, those criticisms would still apply, except that the choice to be able to do something about it (except every two to four years at elections - talk about waiting) is effectively stripped from you.

You are incorrect in your assumptions regarding dictating what is paid.  The insurance companies cannot force a doctor to take their insurance, nor can they force a hospital to take their insurance.  It is negotiated upfront and both parties AGREE to it.  They DON't have to agree to it.  Fast forward to government-run healthcare, NEITHER the Doctor, the hospital, THE TAXPAYER, etc. no longer have ANY CHOICE in what they are allowed to accept or not, but rather, it would be truly  DICTATED... BY THE GOVERNMENT. 

So the thing that you incorrrectly criticize the insurance company for, and find objectionable, is EXACTLY what would happen under government run healthcare...  care and costs being DICTATED by the government...

Real life example... my wife's hospital just booted their insurance company 6-7 months ago and no longer accept it BECAUSE they could not come to an agreement on acceptable charges.  Another company stepped in and they made an agreement under better rates that was good for the employees (allowed them also to participate in HSA's), and acceptable payments for services. Without this competition, this would NOT have happened. Just substitute the government for the one they booted, and you now see why this becomes a major problem... they would then be stuck with the one game in town...

If the GOVERNMENT decides, then WHAT?  If they decide that the nurse, the doctor, the janitor, the secretary, whomever, don't make what they think they should make... put's all the POWER and OPTIONS into the governments hands, except every two to four years...

[fdjake]

You and I have absolutley NO IDEA how a Goverment run Health care system would work in THIS country because it's never even been TRIED.

You're making a lot of ASSUMPTIONS......I'm pointing out what's ALREADY going on.

You talk like you know what will happen and how this will go...You say it can't work, would cost too much, be overwhelmed with waste...

Buddy...........THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE NOW!!!!!!!!!!

What we have is NOT sustainable.....The costs are out of control (so much for the free market theory)  and the future medical professionals needed just to RUN the current system are NOT being created because CURRENT Nurses and Doctors are telling their own KIDS NOT to go into health care!!
That's as bad as it gets.

Why become a Doctor and make $250,000/year (GP) when you could go to business school,  run an HMO,  and make MILLIONS????

I mention a cost saving that occured in a City near me....You say that the cost of those savings just got passed to other subscribers.  So in reality your ADMITTING the current system IS NOT WORKING and that the current FREE MARKET SYSTEM produces NO REAL Cost savings because they just get passed down the line.

MAYBE.......Just MAYBE.....That's how a guy like Dollar Bill McGuire KEEPS his $125 million a year pay check!!!!   I think you just proved my entire point.

Thank you!!!

As ALWAYS the real solution will probably come from the MIDDLE of our perspectives.  A HYBRID of sorts.  Basic health care....No frills.....More if your willing and able to pay for it.  What's wrong with that???
The poor are already taken care of......The people I SEE.....WORK.....They get up EVERYDAY and have a job.....They are the people that need some type of safety net. 

You never commented on the guy who got hit by the drugged up driver????

What's your solution for him????  Broken leg caused by a criminal, driving an unregistered, un-insured car??  And the victim has NO HEALTH CARE COVERAGE and only Liability insurance on his car.

So what does he do???

[furnishedowner]

It's criminal for a Health Insurance CEO to be making 125 MILLION dollars a year, as described by FDJake.  And morally bankrupt. NOBODY is worth that much money in a salary. It's not as if that CEO invented anything or is manufacturing anything, or improving humankind in any way.

A few years ago we were in Maine on a family vacation, and took a seacoast ride with a tourist sail boat.  Further down the coast was a palatial ocean-front estate--huge house, gorgeous lawns and trees.  The property seemed to go on forever, easily the most lavish on that tour. "Who owns that?" I asked.

"Why that belongs to the CEO of Citibank Credit Cards," replied the boat skipper.

My credit card bill from them was being sent with such a tight time margin (4 days from my receipt until the payment had to be back in their office) that I had been hit with a couple of late charges, vehemently protested. Now every time I  paid that bill I visualized that sumptous Maine ocean-front estate, and the money seemed to just stick in my throat. That level of wealth was plundered from obscene money-lending profits from millions of working people like me.

Health care should not be tied to those level of profits. If government is not involved, Robber Barons breed and multiply. We have all seen now how well an under-regulated banking and investment industry has policed their own.

Furnishedowner

[phlegmaticjay]

You and I have absolutley NO IDEA how a Goverment run Health care system would work in THIS country because it's never even been TRIED.

But we can go on the examples of other industrialized nation's that have tried.

You're the one making all the ASSUMPTIONS......I'm pointing out what's ALREADY going on.

You talk like you know what will happen and how this will go...You say it can't work, would cost too much, be overwhelmed with waste...

Buddy...........THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE NOW!!!!!!!!!!

What we have is NOT sustainable.....The costs are out of control (so much for the free market theory)  and the future medical professionals needed just to RUN the current system are NOT being created because CURRENT Nurses and Doctors are telling their own KIDS NOT to go into health care!!
That's as bad as it gets.

And it will get worse with socialized healthcare.  I worked with a guy that came over from Cuba.  I wanted to hit him most of the time because he never had anything good to say about the country he fled to.  He also referenced how great their healthcare system was .  "If you needed a new heart, no charge."  I then asked what the doctor's make.  THE SAME AS A COBBLER! (My Cuban co-worker was a cobbler in Cuba)

Why become a Doctor and make $250,000/year (GP) when you could go to business school,  run an HMO,  and make MILLIONS????

Socialized healthcare won't let doctor's make $250,000/year.  Because with the socialized healthcare will come the socialization of the hospitals.  Why have an insurance plan, when you can just send your subjects to the hospital directly.  Cut out the "middle man" so to speak.  Except with the bureaucratic nightmare that will ensue, we will be contending with 30 middle men just to get in to see the damn doctor.

As ALWAYS the real solution will probably come from the MIDDLE of our perspectives.  A HYBRID of sorts.  Basic health care....No frills.....More if your willing and able to pay for it.  What's wrong with that???
The poor are already taken care of......The people I SEE.....WORK.....They get up EVERYDAY and have a job.....They are the people that need some type of safety net. 

You never commented on the guy who got hit by the drugged up driver????

What's your solution for him????  Broken leg caused by a criminal, driving an unregistered, un-insured car??  And the victim has NO HEALTH CARE COVERAGE and only Liability insurance on his car.

So what does he do???

Overall, my answer to this post lies in my previous post.  A national healthcare plan for those that want it, that can't bully the rest of us into taking it.

[fdjake]

It's GREED......Pure and simple........GREED.  Setting up a system were GOOD, HONEST, BILL PAYING ON TIME people...CAN NOT make a credit card payment ON TIME....BY DESIGN...is GREED.....That's it, end of story.

No ones saying the CEO of that company can't make MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars....JUST DO IT FAIRLY....Thats all....HONESTLY

I love the LIMITED REGULATION cry.....Appartently WALL St.  Health Care, Oil Companies, and BANKS loved it too!!!!!

We can all see EXACTLY what that got us.

[fdjake]

Every single statement (with the exception of the Cuban) in your last post is an ASSUMPTION....NONE of us know how this will be set up.  Again.....you repeatedly tell us WHY this won't work...

IT'S NEVER BEEN ATTEMPTED HERE!!!!!!

Still no answer for the Uninsured motorist I mentioned???