Lou Dobbs for President

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,


"We do need better work permit programs.  People are staying in the US because if they cross the border, like for Christmas,  they can't get back. Tightening up the border has backfired and made some people permanent; people who would rather go home."

This is COMPLETELY unsupportable... let's get this right, you are saying the border agents are STOPPING ILLEGAL immigrants from returning to their country of origin, when that is what HAPPENS to illegal immigrants????  Are you SERIOUS...


"I am shocked at your xenophobia.  We are a nation of immigrants, and we should celebrate that fact.  In the past, it was the "Dirty Irish Need Not Apply", "No Jews", "Chinese may reside here only as house servants", and "Whites Only."

How is it xenophobic to want people to FOLLOW THE IMMIGRATION LAWS that are in place and that other people who are following the process should NOT be penalized for LAW BREAKERS ...  NOONE here has said they are against immigration... they HAVE SAID that they are against ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! 


"What you are spouting is more of the same--i.e. "They won't learn English!"

"Do you have any idea of just how difficult it is to gain fluency in another language when you are an adult?  WHAT LANGUAGES HAVE YOU LEARNED LATELY?  I lived in Japan for five years, studied every week,  but never learned more than the very basics.  It was incredibly difficult.  But our three kids all got fluent just like that.  It's a daunting effort for an adult.  It has always been the kids and grandkids who assimilate;  in three generations the native tongue gets lost.  This is nothing new."

Two words... Rosetta Stone... EXCELLENT PROGRAM for adults of ALL education levels... used by busines and the government ALL THE TIME for overseas personnel...


"What is new, is that our nation, our wonderful melting pot, is becoming more and more Hispanic.  Soon Latinos will be a plurality amongst us.  How are you embracing that?  How are you keeping up?"

What are you saying, that the USA is going to become a primarily Spanish-speaking country???  I speak Spanish, but if I moved to Mexico, or France, or China, it would be EXPECTED that I learn their native tongue...  No different here...

"I, for one, am learning Spanish, for free, at our local evening adult school.  The Mexicans there are learning English, so now we have joint bilingual classes.  I need Spanish every day in order to communicate better with my workers.  I don't expect the 60-year old stone mason to have English fluency, I can make the effort myself."

Noone said you have to be COMPLETELY fluent in English.  Although it makes it easier for an immigrant seeking LEGAL status, there should be a BASIC level of fluency as part of being in the "melting pot" otherwise, it is just a pot of oil and water that serves noone...

"My Mexican workers do not smuggle, apply for welfare, or go to prison.  They either speak or try speaking English, pay their taxes, and raise responsible kids."

If your Mexican workers are illegals, then WHAT taxes do they pay? 

"They work hard and long hours. I trust them in my house and in my business. They are valuable people by any yardstick, and I count them as friends as well as employees."

I can speak well of MANY immigrants I've worked with throughout my life - in Restaurants and Construction, I've worked with Mexicans, in Computers, I worked with Indians (some of the most POLITE, friendly and honest people I've worked with), but that does NOT mean that like EVERYWHERE in the world they do not have their bad apples...


"Your racist comments against the Mexican people were offensive and ignorant. "


SPECIFICALLY identify what comments were racist, ignorant or offensive..  The funny thing is, once you do, you indite yourself, as Lakeside was only parroting what we apply to the Mexicans...

"There are people who try to understand strangers, and then people who just COMPLAIN--"They're not like us".   It's easy to see which category you fall into."

This is ignorant at it's core...  NOONE is saying that they are against immigration, just those who are ILLEGALLY here...  at the same time, they want a MINIMUM standard (and learning the language is one of them) for citizenship...  what's wrong with that????  Instead you want o coddle the ILLEGAL immigrants, and NOT require them to FOLLOW THE LAW, but PUNISH those who have, by ALLOWING the ILLEGAL immigrants to jump to the head of the line... 

Furnishedowner,

You have the same story with every thread - no accountability for those breaking the law, PUNISH those who FOLLOW the law, and if you don't like it, TAXES, penalties and government intrusion on everyone BUT those who should be held accountable, seems to be your stock answer to everything...

Maybe those seven countries have had more of an effect on you than you are willing to recognize...  From my recollection, they were all socialistic countries... 

[propertymanager]

You have the same story with every thread - no accountability for those breaking the law, PUNISH those who FOLLOW the law, and if you don't like it, TAXES, penalties and government intrusion on everyone BUT those who should be held accountable, seems to be your stock answer to everything...

EXACTLY!  FurnishedOwner's only answer is SOCIALISM!  Funny that she can't admit that she's an overt socialist (just like her buddy Obama).

[tatertot]

[[[[......My Mexican workers do not smuggle, apply for welfare, or go to prison.....]]]]

So you are claiming that you hire undocumented aliens? If you do, you are committing a felony and that makes you a felon.

I have no problem with legal immigration. I think it is a terrible insult to the people who go to all the effort of immigrating legally for the USA to give the same rights and more to the people who sneak across the border without meeting any of the immigration criteria.

I'm really curious about how you can be so certain that "your" undocumented aliens have never smuggled anything. You give them a lie detector test every 6 months or so?

[propertymanager]

So you are claiming that you hire undocumented aliens? If you do, you are committing a felony and that makes you a felon.

Maybe that explains why FO doesn't want us to punish felons!!!

[Bluemoon06]

The USA is not stagnant.  It is ever changing.  It is not what it was and is not what it will be.  The area we call the USA was originally populated by native people (we call them Indians).  The English came in.  They didn’t learn Chippewa, they just continued to speak English.  The country is of its people.  We speak whatever we speak.  As the country becomes more and more Hispanic the majority of people may end up speaking Spanish.  In that case this county may become a Spanish speaking county.  Lou Dobbs needs to get with the program.  Viva La USA.

[PositiveOutlook]

Bluemoon06,

"As the country becomes more and more Hispanic the majority of people may end up speaking Spanish.  In that case this county may become a Spanish speaking county.  Lou Dobbs needs to get with the program.  Viva La USA."

While your concept on the surface may sound plausible, you forget the most important part...  I can't think of a time throughout history, where once the conquering people becomes a country (i.e. - they dominate, own and rule the land), they gave up their language to immigrant populism...

As an example, the Indian tribes, speaking different languages, went through periods of dominance, with complete brutality towards one another, but they never ruled the lands of America as a country...  part of that was culture... they never believed that a man could "own" the land, which is why they considered the Louisiana Purchase a fools deal (taking full advantage of it with this knowledge, mind you)...

So the ones who need to "get with the program" are the ones who immigrate here, and want to assimilate into the melting pot and actually become a citizen...  That is unless Mexico plans on an invasion...   

IMHO. because we've gotten away from the assimilation aspect of becoming a citizen, we have more problems than are necessary...

Long live the USA!   

[furnishedowner]

My workers are NOT illegals.  I never said that!  I said that they were Mexican.  I document the legality to work of anyone who applies for a job in my little business.  It's the law.


The problem with Mexican workers being unable to return home for Christmas, New Years, etc. is well documented and I learned about it from Newsweek, Time or one of those magazines.  The new stricter border crossing enforcement in effect since 9-11 had an unexpected effect--legal workers did not want to return home because of the extensive document checking they now had to undergo.  The workers worried that they wouldn't be able to get back in time to go back to work.  They worried (rightfully), that they could risk their jobs if they were held up on the border.

Our border regions have a 400+ year history of migrations back and forth across the border.  It has always been viewed as no big deal to go to Mexico, or to the US.  Now it's a big deal.  This much stronger enforcement is having unforeseen sociological impact on border families.  There are thousands of border families who speak both languages and have relatives in both countries.  Jobs and family obligations have always shifted across this fluid border.  Now that has changed, and Mexican citizens are electing to stay in the US rather than risk a holiday visit home.

Border regions, all across the world, share two languages.  Alsace, in France, French and German.  Schleswig, in Germany, German and Danish.  Tessin, in Switzerland, Schweizer Deutsch and Italian, New Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas, English and Spanish.  This has to be a world-wide characteristic of border regions.

What is interesting to me is that immigrant pockets--Puerto Ricans in New York, Mexican immigrants in the MidWest, and migrant workers everywhere bring their language, food, and culture with them.  We are all enriched by this new infusion of peoples and their energy.

It is easy to criticize someone for not speaking the language of the country in which they are living.  I am telling you, it is MUCH MORE difficult to learn a language as an adult.  Not impossible, but difficult.  And if you are not that well-educated to begin with, like many older, poorer Mexican workers, who maybe only had a couple of years of Spanish education in the village school, almost impossible.  The kids learn a new language like breathing.  We don't. 

My experience in being almost totally illiterate in Japan (3 alphabets to learn) humbled me big-time.  It is much easier to learn Spanish, though, SAME ALPHABET, and very logical. I am having fun and making great strides with this language, now understanding maybe 1/2 if I know the subject.  You should try it, it opens doors to many new customers, clients, experiences.  Makes you a world citizen, not a provincial.

Intelligent, educated people, all across the world, strive to learn a language other than their mother tongue.  In this country, it is a requirement for an advanced University degree.

Nobody is throwing out English!  But studying Spanish as a second language, would be really smart.  Spanish is a HUGE language, one of the top 5 in the world.

Furnishedowner

 

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"It is easy to criticize someone for not speaking the language of the country in which they are living.  I am telling you, it is MUCH MORE difficult to learn a language as an adult.  Not impossible, but difficult."

Since it is so hard (learning it in a night school would make it hard), the question then should be....  Being that it is difficult for all adults to learn a new language, who should have to learn the extra language... the person wanting citizenship in the country that does not speak their native language, or the inhabitants of the country?

Who should have to assimilate? 

[tatertot]

[[[[.......immigrant pockets--Puerto Ricans in New York....]]]]

Sorry, Furnishedowner, but Puerto Ricans in New York are no more immigrants than Californians or Alabamans in New York are. Puerto Ricans are US Nationals, not foreign nationals.

[furnishedowner]

tatertot,
Whoops--yes, of course you are right.  My knowledge of the East Coast is based on only some tourist travel and reading.  I did know that Puerto Ricans are American citizens.  We have had a few Puerto Rican-born federal employees stay with us over the years.  I hope to vacation there some day.

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"Who should have to assimilate"

So I take it no answer...  AGAIN...   

[furnishedowner]

PosOutlook,
Of course the immigrant should have to assimilate!  You ask such non-sensical questions!

I have NEVER known a newcomer to this country who DIDN'T want to learn English.  Of course everyone knows it is the language of the country.  What I was saying was that it is DIFFICULT.  If you are a field laborer, you don't have access to Rosetta Stone, or a computer.  Or even night classes.  Life is all about working for that paycheck and surviving.

I take the people who work for me to the local library.  They are astounded that they are allowed access for free.  It's their children who "get it", who start assimilating.  I see it every week--their kids play together, in English.  They answer Mami and Papi in Spanish.

My question to you, PO, is--If the population in your town starts shifting to Spanish-speaking--if you become a minority speaker, are YOU willing to make the effort to learn?  Or will you be on the sidelines, complaining?

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"Of course the immigrant should have to assimilate!  You ask such non-sensical questions!"

More like common-sense rhetorical questions to make the point...  as with everything else, you want to place the burden of communication on the people living here as opposed to those who WANT to live here...  wrong emphasis... which was my point...

"I have NEVER known a newcomer to this country who DIDN'T want to learn English.  Of course everyone knows it is the language of the country.  What I was saying was that it is DIFFICULT.  If you are a field laborer, you don't have access to Rosetta Stone, or a computer.  Or even night classes.  Life is all about working for that paycheck and surviving."

Like you said, libraries have FREE internet access for those who don't have it for themselves...  a product like Rosetta Stone could also be provided as part of their citizenship application, but in doing so, just like with a DRIVING LICENSE, they should have to have a BASIC communication level in English for citizenship as part of assimilating...  it only SERVES THEM for this to be a requirement.  With the internet, you don't NEED night classes...  any more excuses?

"My question to you, PO, is--If the population in your town starts shifting to Spanish-speaking--if you become a minority speaker, are YOU willing to make the effort to learn?  Or will you be on the sidelines, complaining?"

LOL...  first off, I already speak Spanish...  but let's assume I didn't...  why would I learn another language unless it was necessary to me to communicate?  Chances are, if I were the MINORITY of English-speaking in a town, I would seek out those who speak my language, as they do in all ethnic towns...  People will follow the path of least-resistance and communicate and befriend people they find it easy to communicate with, unless they are giving reason not to...

For instance, I know Spanish-speaking people... and guess what, they communicate with English, even if it is BROKEN English...  they do this, BECAUSE they WANT or NEED something...  but if we were to follow your logic, they wouldn't TAKE THE TIME to learn what they need to GET what they WANT or NEED...  as with everything else in life, all it takes is initiative and motivation...