House passes Health Care Plan...

[sellnbama]

Furnished,
 Surely you're smarter than this.IT'S 2000 PAGES!!IF IT WAS ONLY ABOUT HEALTHCARE IT WOULD BE ABOUT 10 PAGES!!Why in the world are you liberals not wanting to make damn sure that what is passed will work ,instead of just passing any monster of a bill!!??

Non of this takes hold till 2013,so why would the "Sneaker" of the house pass it on a saturday night two days after a tragidy if it's the right solution and has nothing to hide?Do you liberals ever ask questions of your great leaders or just fall in line like sheep?Did you even bother to look @ the GOP plan that was a fraction of the cost and the CBO said would work??I thought liberals were open minded,more like closed minded to free market and prosperity.This great strategy has lead us to trillions wasted and 10.2% and climbing unemployment.So,why are you all patting yourselves on the back??

[PositiveOutlook]

Sellibama,

"Why in the world are you liberals not wanting to make damn sure that what is passed will work ,instead of just passing any monster of a bill!!??"

From her positings on this subject, Furnishedowner only wants what she wants with regards to nationalized healthcare....  it does matter the DAMAGE that will be done because of this...  in all our dicussions on this, she has demonstrated no concern for this, which is scary...



Furnishedowner,

"It's really puzzling to me--the hotheadedness about getting health care for more Americans."

Because you don't see it for what it is... it is a direct assault on freedom...  When you are FINED by the government for not buying a MANDATED product, you LOSE your freedom...  Name another product you are MANDATED by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT to buy or face a fine...  It doesn't exist BECAUSE it is unconstitutional...  even the FLAWED example of auto insurance, which is STATE-mandated, NOT federal, there is no federal OR state fine for not carrying insurance if you CHOOSE not to own a car

"For helping people live better."

How is INCREASING the costs for EVERYONE living better???  You do realize that the MIDDLE class are the ones will be squeezed to pay more, right?  When small business EMPLOYERS (who employ 70% of the employees) are faced with a fixed cost fine of 8%, one thet can BUDGET FOR, what do you think they will do?

"What are you all so scared about?"

The fact that you are not concerned about a bill that is 2000+ pages scares me as a fellow citizen...  you are either choosing to remain blissfuly ignorant or DON'T CARE about the damage to our country....

But specifically, how about...

1. More TAXES for EVERYONE,

2. INCREASED premiums, TAXES on businesses are passed down to those they serve...  Think about it Furnishedowner, if the government put a LUXURY TAX on FURNISHED rentals of 8%, DIRECTLY affecting you, you are not going to be FORCED to INCREASE your rental fee to cover it? The more you apply this to REAL life, the more onerous and oppressive it becomes... 

3. Being FORCED into a government-run healthcare program if your employer chooses the fine over coverage (and this will push the TOTAL COST for the premium onto the middle-class, INCREASING their costs),

4. FINES if you can't afford the INCREASED COST of your insurance (insult on top of injury), INCREASED DEFICITS FOREVER (or the INCREASED TAXES to make up for it)...  so you get to pay a FINE, which gets YOU NOTHING, so others can have insurance???

5. LOSING your EXISTING coverage in a VARIETY of ways,

6. INCREASED DEFICITS FOREVER - the only alternative is INCREASED TAXES,

7. INCREASED NATIONAL DEBT...  debt upon debt upon debt, which will raise our INTEREST-ALONE payments to OVER A TRILLION DOLLARS ANNUALLY in a decade or so...  money COMPLETELY LOST TO INCOMPETANCE...

8. The fact that this bill DOES NOT meet its stated goal...  you have NEVER answered how ADDING TRILLIONS of dollars to an EXISTING "broken" system SAVES MONEY!!!

9. The EXPANSION of goverment, which is NOT taken into consideration in the COSTS of this... 

10. The EXPANSION of FEDERAL POWERS, going in the exact OPPOSITE to the LIMITED and ENUMERATED POWERS in the CONSTITUTION...  Exactly, with the EXPANSION of FEDERAL POWERS, how do you have ANY moral authority to complain the next time YOUR ox is gored?


Tell us, which, if ANY, of the above is not the case?

I could go on...  but IMHO, the fact that you don't show ANY concern about this, Furnishedowner, shows either hubris or ignorance.  At the very least, it the exact opposite of holding the government ACCOUNTABLE... you just want what you want...

Being a small business employer, I am curious Furnishedowner, do you provide health insurance coverage for your employees??? 

Hmmm... 

[furnishedowner]

It is exactly because I am a small business owner that I have become so concerned about the lack of affordable health care.

We had a cleaning staff member who urgently needed a hysterectomy.  That is an expensive operation. I arranged meetings, here at the office, with several representatives of health insurance companies.

We could not find any health care that worked.  Either the coverage was ONLY after huge, unaffordable deductibles or it was prohibitively expensive for the employees and for me.

Finally we found a "state low-income fund" that could cover my employees if they didn't make too much money.  I gave everyone a substantial raise so they could get coverage.  There was a 1-year waiting period, and finally she got her operation, as she was part-time and qualified.

You are all freaked out about a bill that is not law yet.  It is as if you do not know how to contact your representatives and ask them to change the parts you do not want.  I have much more confidence in the grinding of that big wheel of government.  You have elected people to be your voice there--use them.

What astonishes me is that you seem to have so little concern for YOUR OWN HEALTH risk in living in a country where many people are untreated by health care.

That you seem unconcerned about the death rate in babies, longevity, and our slipping more and more down in the quality-of-life scale.

Furnishedowner

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

So it's as I thought....  you DON'T provide healthcare insurance to your employees...

"We could not find any health care that worked.  Either the coverage was ONLY after huge, unaffordable deductibles or it was prohibitively expensive for the employees and for me."

Please tell us what the unaffordable deductible was...

"Finally we found a "state low-income fund" that could cover my employees if they didn't make too much money.  I gave everyone a substantial raise so they could get coverage."

Define substanatial raise... the reason I am asking for numbers is because once you do, your argument will fall apart...

"You are all freaked out about a bill that is not law yet.  It is as if you do not know how to contact your representatives and ask them to change the parts you do not want."

People are "freaked out" BECAUSE they are NOT being listened to...  The OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people who showed up at town-hall meetings were AGAINST ALL OF THIS...  Tea Parties, marches on Washington...  ALL being IGNORED by the Dem's... why do you think Obama, in a BLUE-of-BLUE state (NJ), where he, Former Presdient Clinton, VP Biden, (the list goes on), ACORN, the Democratic MACHINE in NJ... They PERSONALLY visited the state MULTIPLE TIMES in a bid to SAVE another democratic Governor job, where a year ago, Obama won the state by 15 points, and the candidate OUTSPENT his challenger 4-to-1, and with the MEDIA totally in the tank for Corzine, LOST by 5 points (a 20-point swing)!!!

"Finally we found a "state low-income fund" that could cover my employees if they didn't make too much money.  I gave everyone a substantial raise so they could get coverage.  There was a 1-year waiting period, and finally she got her operation, as she was part-time and qualified."

The amazing thing about this is that you don't recognize that the government-run solution had a YEAR LONG waiting period...  She had to LIVE with her condition for a YEAR...  She STILL had to pay money from your substantial raise to get it.. so instead of getting a full-time job, or a second part-time one, which could've been used to cover her cost of insurance, she WAITED A YEAR...   

So, how much was the premium and deductible for the state-run (not federal mind you), plan?

[sellnbama]

Along with the majority of america,,I'm more concerned with the economy.You know the main thing Obama vowed to be first order of business(not gitmo,healthcare,etc).When will you liberals hold him accountable for any of this mess that he's made?Is it really gonna take 20%unemployment??Or will you have a new blame then?

Liberals need to learn some new words,,like accountability,responsibility or perhaps look up the meanings.But luckely people are'nt stupid enough to beleive the blame game any longer.That would be THE MAJORITY OF AMERICA @40% conservative.

[PositiveOutlook]

Sellinbama,

"When will you liberals hold him accountable for any of this mess that he's made?Is it really gonna take 20%unemployment??"

The real unemployment rate is at around 17.6%...

Here is an example of how the "Stimulus" was SUPPOSED to work...  According to Obama, if we enacted it, unemployment would not go above 8%, and was supposed to have IMMEDIATE impact with SHOVEL-READY jobs...

Now that we've topped over 10.2%, which we know is higher but they are massaging the stats...  stimulus was a "success"???

It's the same with nationalized healthcare...  The stated goals keep changing, and the kicker is, NONE of the stated goals are met...  it will cost TRILLIONS MORE than the EXISTING "broken" system...

HISTORY tells us that this will cost MUCH MORE than they are saying it will...

[sellnbama]

Positive,
Neal Boortz who is also a lawyer has read it.He said it will balloon to atleast $3trill,and still leaves 18million uninsured.As I've said it's not about healthcare and only a small minded person would think it is.The writing is on the wall in neon letters. 

[furnishedowner]

PosOutlook,

I have no idea what the deductibles or premiums were, just that they were laughably out-of-reach.  Just think about it, if a liberal business owner like me wants to help the employees get health insurance and I CAN'T DO IT, doesn't that tell you that our system is broken?

More than 80% of small businesses do not offer health insurance at all, and my little business is among them.  Only 1 person here has health insurance, and that is through her husband's job.

Let's see how our health bill fares in the Senate.  I am really pleased that any health bill has made it that far.

Universal health care is not an assault on our freedom.  That is ridiculous. 

It surprises me that you all seem so isolated from the working poor... that you don't see lack of affordable health care as the huge problem that it is.  This is the big problem that got Obama elected.  This is why we all voted for him.

Until we get a bill passed, we are all subject to being bankrupted by a huge, overwhelming illness.  This is not a conservative or liberal problem, it is a human problem.  We need universal affordable health care.  Period.

Furnishedowner

[sellnbama]

Furnished,
Maybe that's why you voted for obama.But the majority were focused on the economy as he was offering sunshine/lollypops to fix it also.But either way that was his strongpoint to bring on better days after him hypnotizing people that the bush years were so terrible.Now this is his economy at 10.2% and bush's at 6% is the past.

So I ask you(probably won't answer).Jobless people are'nt concerned with healthcare.And have you read the 2000 pages you support??SOoooooo why do you support it other than your dictator(who also has'nt read it)tells you too??I'll be waiting for POSITIVE to explain why your not responding once again to one of my simple questions.

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedowner,

"I have no idea what the deductibles or premiums were, just that they were laughably out-of-reach.  Just think about it, if a liberal business owner like me wants to help the employees get health insurance and I CAN'T DO IT, doesn't that tell you that our system is broken?"

YOU said - "WE could not find any health care that worked.  Either the coverage was ONLY after huge, unaffordable deductibles or it was prohibitively expensive for the employees and for me."

So it was SO unaffordable and the deductible SO high that you don't remember it???  That is just NOT credible... Then how did you know the state-run plan was cheaper... What about the state-run plan premiu, you don't remember that either, right?  or that deductible, right?...  what about the "substantial raise" for the PART-TIMER to cover the cost of the state-run plan? 

See, the real reason you don't post these numbers is because if you DO, that is why you KNOW your argument will fall apart... kinda the same reason you didn't respond to the 10-points I posted above about what we "so afraid of"...

"We need universal affordable health care.  Period"

We ALL want affordable healthcare AND personal responsibility...  We DON'T want government run healthcare... forget the government, get the 1300+ insurance companies competing against EACH OTHER across state lines, and prices WILL come down...  period...


Sellinbama,

"I'll be waiting for POSITIVE to explain why your not responding once again to one of my simple questions."

That is very easy... because then her argument falls apart...  Just like all things in life, the devil is in the details...

[propertymanager]

I have no idea what the deductibles or premiums were, just that they were laughably out-of-reach.  Just think about it, if a liberal business owner like me wants to help the employees get health insurance and I CAN'T DO IT, doesn't that tell you that our system is broken?

That's the first thing you've said that I agree with.  The system IS broken - BADLY BROKEN!  It's broken because the government has stuck its nose in health care (long ago).  It's broken because you lefties think that everyone has a RIGHT to healthcare - they do not.  It's broken because no-one is refused healthcare even though they have no insurance and refuse to pay AND THEN THEIR BILL IS PASSED ON TO THOSE OF US WHO WORK AND DO HAVE INSURANCE!

Healthcare is NOT a right!  Housing is NOT a right!  Food is NOT a right!  The fact that you don't know that IS THE PROBLEM!

[sellnbama]

propertyman,

You know what else is "broken"?The housing market,,and we know who was the master player in that also.Ford claimed a big profit last month,,showing that once again govt intervention only prolongs the pain as it multiplies the suffering.I think it's a simple as that.SHould'nt govt be focused on protecting our country and protecting our economy?Or is that the good old days, before we became the united states of entitlements.Ridiculous.

[furnishedowner]

Actually, I think I do remember the monthly premium on the state plan.  Somewhere around $140/month.  The deductible ? $1000 or $500.  The raise I gave to help with premiums?  I think it was $.75/hour. This was about 3 years ago. I think the state plan is now out of money, there was a big demand.  The state does provide health care insurance for all kids--the 6 kids belonging to my workers use this plan.  Their parents are uninsured, except one.

Yep, I do think everyone has the right to affordable health care.  And that it's crazy that babies with colds have to be seen in expensive ER's because their is no other option.  I agree with you on that, propertymanager.  I disagree that you would allow people to die in the streets if they couldn't pay.  That you would slam that ER door in their faces.

I am not the enemy here.  None of us are.  We are all in the same boat, trying to make a living and take care of our families.  I do my best to keep up with what's happening.  I form my own opinions.

I am not clueless, stupid or easily manipulated. If I were, I would have come over to agreeing with you all.

Furnishedowner

[justin0419]

I am not clueless, stupid or easily manipulated. If I were, I would have come over to agreeing with you all.
Furnishedowner

Simply stated - all others are clueless and stupid.  Wow...

I would be ok with having some type of triage type clinic.  Guess it would have to almost be set up in the same manner as a public defender is for the court system.  Somehow there would need to be a position where a trained medical professional would be able to provide basic care for people who can't afford it. 

What many people (liberals) don't seem to understand is that not everyone is ENTITLED to live the same kind of life.  Why should someone who is too lazy to work (because the govt will pay them about the same if they just sit on their a$$) live the same life as someone who has an intrinsic drive to succeed, paid for college out of their own pocket, and got a good paying job? 
Why is it so easy for someone to get disability?  Why is it so easy for a woman to become a baby factory and still "make it" just fine?  People need to be accountable and responsible for their actions.  If you can't afford a baby, use birth control.  If you get knocked up because you can't keep your legs shut and you don't use any protection, I as a tax payer should not have to bail you out and foot the bill. 
It's ludicrous that most of the applicants we have for our rentals in my town are "disabled," but yet walk around just fine.  If you're too lazy to work, then see what the soup kitchen has for you.  It's not me or my family's responsibility to pay your way. 

[propertymanager]

Well said Justin!