House passes Health Care Plan...

[sellnbama]

Very well said Justin,
This is always the way of liberals,they are very good at spending your money as long as it does'nt effect their lives.But it makes them feel all better to help out at your expense not theirs of course.

Furnished,
1-You still have yet to explain the 2000 pages as opposed to perhaps 10(if it really was healthcare it'll be this simple).
2- So the state ran out of money on the plan you mentioned??And you're all for a federal plan like that??I'm sure you can put a pattern together,right??
3-What exactly does healthcare have to do with jobs/economy which was your dictator's first order of business(as stated in the campaign).
4-Did you bother to look at the GOP plan which CBO rated cheaper,,and was alot moresimple.?     

[PositiveOutlook]

Justin,

Agreed... well said...



Furnishedowner,

"Actually, I think I do remember the monthly premium on the state plan.  Somewhere around $140/month.  The deductible ? $1000 or $500."

So you can remember the state plan but not the others???  That's OK, we'll work with your numbers...  Part-time work would be around 25-30 hours, and assuming you paid on the high-end of the scale for the work she did, say $12/hour, that would make her wage $300 - $360 GROSS per week, $1290 - $1548 per month, or $15,600 - $18,500 per year...

She was able to afford a $140/month premium, along with a $500-$1000 deductible...  The average cost of a hysterectomy is between $5000-$15000 including hospital costs...  At $140 month and a $500 or $1000 deducitble, she didn't need to WAIT A YEAR...  She had the money to get the hysterectomy..  BY LAW, hospitals HAVE TO take payments you can afford... Deductible would have been a down payment....

The difference here is you are looking to get it for FREE at the expense of others... This is just WRONG... temporary help for those who TRULY need it... yes... permanent subsidization?.... NO WAY...

"The raise I gave to help with premiums?  I think it was $.75/hour."

I would hardly call $.75/hour "substantial", especially for part-time, but let's just leave that to the side...

"This was about 3 years ago. I think the state plan is now out of money, there was a big demand.  The state does provide health care insurance for all kids--the 6 kids belonging to my workers use this plan.  Their parents are uninsured, except one."

Why would the parents be unisured?... Medicaid has a sliding scale, and if they could afford $140/month before... what about now?

"Yep, I do think everyone has the right to affordable health care."

Yes, and they have the right to pay for it too... along with rights come responsibility... don't you agree?

"And that it's crazy that babies with colds have to be seen in expensive ER's because their is no other option.  I agree with you on that, propertymanager.  I disagree that you would allow people to die in the streets if they couldn't pay.  That you would slam that ER door in their faces."

The diiference is that you want to FEDERALIZE mandated coverage, and seem to be OK with fines and imprisonment...  what you DON'T even take into consideration is that the ER's are used PRIMARILY by Medicaid users because they don't want to wait for an appointment nor pay their $3 co-pay, but have cell-phones, and LOTS of other goodies... 

The other fact is that there are NOT enough GP doctors to HANDLE an influx of newly insured people who will add demand to the system, making wait times LONGER...

"I am not the enemy here.  None of us are."

Enemy... maybe a little strong... part of the problem?... most definitely... all this will do is EXPAND the entitlement mindset, which WILL cost us more and more money... The fact that this does not only NOT concern you, but you embrace it, certainly doesn't put you in a good place...

"We are all in the same boat, trying to make a living and take care of our families."

Yes, and some of us are willing to do so without taking away freedoms from you...  You?  not so much...  your stock answer is the government, and that is NOT what has made our country great...


"I do my best to keep up with what's happening.  I form my own opinions. I am not clueless, stupid or easily manipulated. If I were, I would have come over to agreeing with you all."

Although I don't think you are stiupid... we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest... something to consider, how many of the alternate plans have you looked at?... Do you even know how many Rep plans there are?..

[robdedgar]

bluemoon,

I would hope that our coming health care would be more in the line of existing Medicaid, and VA medical.  I can't believe anyone is going to jail for not having medical insurance!  That is scare propaganda just like the supposed "death panels".

I have seen Va medical and it is not even close to being the best medical service available. I went to the Va hospital to be seen in early August and I am still waiting to get my follow up appointments.  I would hate to see our health care handled like the Va.

I could see large companies being fined for not offering health care insurance.

Great less people getting hired in a really bad economy.
How are people supposed to pay for healthcare if they are not working.  I read that the real unemployment numbers are more like 17% due to the people who have lost thier jobs 6 months ago or longer that still cannot find work.  Jeez Obama, if we let you force this healthcare reform down our throats will you focus on the economy?

[furnishedowner]

selnbama and posoutlook,

No, I haven't read the 2000 page government health plan. That is the job of my elected representative and staff, and yours.  I doubt you have either.  That would be a full-time job.

Pos, you have no idea of the working poor.  You take 1 tiny fact and create a giant false scenario for whatever conclusion you want to make.  My part-time cleaning staff do not make $12.00 an hour.  I live in a town where the MEDIAN FAMILY INCOME in the last census was somewhere around $28,000.  I pay way above Wal-Mart, McDonald's, and the chain hotels, but I do not pay East or West Coast wages.  I live in this local economy.  You are way off base in trying to extrapolate from where you live.  The cost of living is lower here, but most people live paycheck to paycheck with nothing left over.  The working poor.

Justin, I absolutely agree with you that not everyone is entitled to live the same life.  That work is necessary, and there should be no entitlement, just earned rights.  Why would I not think that?

It bothers me, too, that people are on disability, yet their brains seem to be working fine and they should be doing something to make a living.
No one but the most pitiable should get free welfare. There should be workfare for able-bodied adults.  Workfare with childcare so their kids aren't left home alone. 

There should be no free medical but AFFORDABLE medical care.  Everyone should pay the premiums for our new system.  Just like what happens in the other civilized countries of Europe and Asia.

Furnishedowner

[sellnbama]

Furnished,
Thanks for the honesty.And I too would expect for my elected officials to read it.But the democrats are the ones who promised full transparentcy and then go behind closed doors to write bills.If there is nothing to hide why was it passed as soon as it was finished on a saturday night?I get emails from my elected officials,listen to attorney Neal Boortz go through it and it's terrible so far.If it was the solution why has it been so sneaky and " gotta do it now" attitude?It does'nt take effect till 2013!!!!!The truth is the longer it is exposed the more time more people can see it for what it is.

So why,,can't your liberals keep their promise of transparentcy if there's nothing to hide?

Fact is people voted for Obama because he said Washington needed cleaning,and promised transparentcy for all officials to be held accountable.
  So either he lied,or his puppet masters told him that is'nt the way we do things.Either way,,when do YOU hold him accoutable for his promises.And when do you ask about what is really effecting us all,,,THE ECONOMY being addressed??
  Rahm Emanuel said "you don't want to let a crisis go to waste".THis economy is their "crisis" and sickos that say things like that are using it to take advantage of us all while we ALL SUFFER.!!   

[PositiveOutlook]

Furnishedpwner,

"Pos, you have no idea of the working poor.  You take 1 tiny fact and create a giant false scenario for whatever conclusion you want to make.  My part-time cleaning staff do not make $12.00 an hour.  I live in a town where the MEDIAN FAMILY INCOME in the last census was somewhere around $28,000.  I pay way above Wal-Mart, McDonald's, and the chain hotels, but I do not pay East or West Coast wages.  I live in this local economy.  You are way off base in trying to extrapolate from where you live.  The cost of living is lower here, but most people live paycheck to paycheck with nothing left over.  The working poor."

I have used NATIONAL AVERAGES becuase you have refused to supply the numbers...  If they make MORE than $12/hour, your "substantial raise" is less substantial, and it also opens up the point that the hysterectomy would have been MORE afforable even WITHOUT insurance...  Provide the numbers and we'll exam it...  if not, we know you don't want to, BECAUSE your argument will fall apart.  If you really want to discuss the issue, LET'S DISCUSS IT... but quit DODGING it while at the same time pretending you are serious about the discussion....

As far as me having an understanding of the working poor... you are COMPLETELY off-base... you have tried this before, it didn't work then and it won't now...  My industry is FULL of the working poor...

So give us the numbers and LET'S EXAMINE IT...

[justin0419]

Pos,
Furnished's 75 cent raise is good for $30/wk full time.  So considering a little over 4 weeks per month, I'd say she made a very good step toward helping her employees afford an extra $140/mo.  Now the real question is if the employees would use the money for that or if they would just pay a little more on their debts each month and still say they couldn't afford it.

Furnished,
I must say your last post sounds way more reasonable IMO.  Lawmakers need to understand that there will always be different classes of wealth, or lack thereof, among the people unless they want to "spread the wealth around."  Leveling everyone's incomes would be disasterous.  Away goes the drive to make something better of yourself.  Away goes innovation.  We lose more ground to other countries developing new technologies, etc.
I think one of the keys to true health care reform lies in tort reform.  That should have a domino effect to help reduce costs.  Less or no risk of medical professionals being sued for multiple millions means malpractice insurance premiums could decrease.  These savings should be passed on to the patient.  Of course this represents a perfect world scenario where savings would be passed on to those who need it and not kept by the wealthy.
Another key is R&D costs for new drugs and technology.  The obscene costs of R&D are passed on to the patient with drug prices that are out of reach to the average consumer without great insurance benefits.  A tube of salve to help clear up a psoriasis flare up for my daughter would cost over $700 without insurance.  I paid $9 for it.  There is no way I could justify $700 for that otherwise (her condition is not that bad). 
I feel for the people who are out there trying to make it off $7/hr.  I remember how hard I worked when I was working 80+ hours a week to bring home $360/wk prior to joining the military.  I understand some people will never have much more than that.  These people truly need an affordable option.  As far as I'm concerned, people dependent on the gov't for welfare for their existence have chosen their lot in life.  That's entirely different. 
Placing more limits on our rampant entitlement system would help our gov't immensely.  I briefly tried looking this up, but I remember hearing something about women getting paid more welfare per child up to a limit of 5.  Seems like that just perpetuates the problem as well as allowing deadbeats to breed in alarming numbers like Mike talks about. 
I'm standing by my idea of clinics for people who really need health care...only for fairly serious issues.  If you've got the sniffles, suck it up. 

[furnishedowner]

Justin,

Thanks for weighing in. I always (okay, almost always) enjoy your thoughts.
I agree with your post almost 100%.  Yes, we desperately need tort reform!  What is the conservative view of this?  I ask because I really don't know.  Who are the attorney lobbyists for keeping the status quo?  Is this a partisan issue in any way? 

There should be a limit to malpractice lawsuits...but what should it be? One Million for amputating the wrong limb?  Five million for death by incompetence?

Also we should be allowed to buy drugs in Canada or from any country with equivalent standards.  Who knows, maybe French drugs by mail-order would be great.  Our health insurance premiums should cover this.  I used to buy Grandma's glaucoma meds from Canada mail-order.  They were way less costly than the co-pays here.  But it was difficult, not easy for a senior citizen to access.

These prohibitions have been foisted on us by Pharmaceutical Company lobbyists.  Just like Health Insurance lobbyists, their concern is only for company profits.

I agree that I trust government more than some of you do.  I feel government wrongs and excesses tend to self-correct, though it may take years.

It's some big business that I mistrust.  Companies and industries who enrich their CEOs and stockholders and do not care who has to pay for it.

Furnishedowner

[Bluemoon06]

Yes, we desperately need tort reform! 

I am sorry but I see no need for tort reform.  Tort reform is a crab argument.  We (the little crabs) resent it when one of us is wronged and the perpetrator of the wrong is made to pay.  We always look at the little guy (a crab like us) that is awarded $10gazillion for getting hurt and we say he is not worth that.  We should not concern ourselves that that particular crab may get out of the bucket.  What we should do is look at the company that hurt him and ask ourselves how can we hurt that company.  If the award is insignificant the company won’t change.  Companies can’t be put in jail, all they have is money.  You have to make it hurt or it will just become a cost of doing business.

Tort is designed to make a company think seriously about making sure that they don’t hurt the little guy because he may sue.

[LakesideEstimating]

Putting liberals and conservatives aside for a minute (I am conservative btw), the gov't wants to take over health care. Can anyone name a gov't agency that, in the history of this great country, was run efficiently? Give me just one...anybody?!?

[furnishedowner]

The government does stuff for us that we can't easily do for ourselves.
1.  Corps of Engineers builds dams, bridges, levees, huge projects; you use their stuff everyday
2.  Military has done a pretty good job in that nobody wants to mess with us
3.  Park Service is underfunded but they love their work in maintaining National Parks. We love visiting them.
4.  The infectious disease /drug people have saved us from a couple of big bullets, like Thalidomide. They are essential.

We can't do this stuff ourselves.  Providing a universal health care option for those who have no access to health insurance would be another big project that government might do better.  The health insurance industry has failed so far to deliver inexpensive, universal coverage.

Furnishedowner

[JakeRodgers]

furnished- no one is saying that the govt doesn't provide some necessary functions. it does- you just listed a few. LakeSide is pointing out that most of the government entities (including the ones you listed) are HORRIBLY BLOATED AND INEFFICENT.
For example- the Obama administration saying it "created" jobs by counting raises given to govt employees as saved jobs! this is a microcosm of the bloated and twisted nature of govt agencies. The govt lives and breathes on a math system that the rest of the private sector would go to jail for using.   
Do we need health care reform? Of course.
Will govt takeover of health care be the streamline we need? Doubtful.

[LakesideEstimating]

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying, Jake!!!

Look at Medicaid, Medicare, the US Postal Service, The IRS, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and on, and on, and on.

All of these gov't run agencies have wasted untold billions of our money. Giving the politicians more power is not the answer. Allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines would be a start, going after ambulance chasers to curb outrageous lawsuits is a start, taking away the monopoly that drug companies have on new medicine would be a start. Just please, PLEASE don't give Washington any more power than they already have!

 

[PositiveOutlook]

Well since it is obvious Furnishedowner will not provide the above numbers...  Yes, let's look at them....

Medicaid - BROKE,

Medicare - BROKE,

Social Security - Just about BROKE

US Postal Service - will carry a fiscal deficit in the BILLIONS and they are struggling for solvency - one of their CHIEF strategies?  CUT THEIR SERVICES to five days per week

Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac,  - Costing us HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars


But lets ADD over a TRILLION DOLLARS to an EXISTING "broken" healthcare system to SAVE MONEY...      

[sellnbama]

Hey we bailout banks,car companies,etc right?And China and other nations buy our debt(bailout).So what if those were'nt there to buy our debt?Would we have to actually run a budget on what we have?Is'nt that what funtioning businesses have to do?Just a crazy thought I had.Crazy,huh?