Question about my girlfriend's interest in MY 1st house

[Milwaukee]

I just bought my first house (accepted offer moving to inspection next week, closing on Feb 17th).  I currently live in an apartment with my girlfriend of several years.  She will be moving in with me.  Here is my concern: there is a lot of "OUR" house talk as it will be a house that we both live in.  I dropped the 20% DP, I am the only one on the mortgage and ultimately I am the only one responsible for making sure it is paid for.  I want to make sure that IF we ever went our separate ways, she could not sue for having "Contributed to the payment of the property" and thought it was partially hers.

We both split the rent currently in our apartment ($350 + $350) and the mortgage + Taxes are less than our current rent since I put the 20% DP.  I would like her to kick in some $ since she doesn't actually have rent anymore and is getting to live in a much better/bigger house.  She didn't/doesn't/won't have the financial ability to buy a house for another few years so going in together on the property A.) wasn't possible and B.) Wasn't something I wanted to do anyways (it's practically marriage).

I guess I just need a little guidance.

[rookieNYC]

go to an attorney and have a antenuptial agreement drawn up specifying whatever you feel is fair and have her sign it...trust me...

[Milwaukee]

Even if we are not engaged and don't plan on it soon?

[rookieNYC]

listen..its good that you are being realistic about the possibilities of the demise of your relationship..it may not happen and you may live happily ever after..There may be some people who say forming such an agreement may be viewed as a negative on the relationship..I say there is nothing worse than a scorned woman..You can explain to the attorney your current relationship status and have the agreement tailored in such a way..You dont have to be married or engaged but you want to safeguard your investments..Piece of advice...While you are it make sure to add in clauses in the event you do get married or engaged as well...Such as any income or investments made in each others OWN name is considered seperate assets and not jointly shared etc..Go all the way if you are going to do this ...Express to the attorney what your ultimate goals are in regard to safeguarding your money and assets and FUTURE earnings,income,investments as well....An attorney has to understand what your goals to structure a proper contract/agreement for the matter..This may run you anywhere from $1500-$2500 and I advise you to make sure you use an attorney who is well versed on this matter..Dont just hire any attorney because they are cheaper..There may be a day in the future when this contract gets tested by a court or another attorney..Make sure its rock solid...Last piece of advice..Dont let her to tell you the BS that she loves you and would never make you sign something like this blah blah blah..Safeguard your assets or when the end of the relationship comes trust me she will expect some of your hard earned money...You will then wish she signed it...There is nothing like a scorned woman...Remember that..

[PositiveOutlook]

Milwaukee,

If I recall correctly, this is the same girl you've had an 18 month relationship with who had debt problems.

If you consider marriage a business relationship, where yours is yours and hers is hers, then I guess a pre-nup is in order as long as she feels the same. 

If you consider marriage a lifelong commitment whereby two are married as one, holding nothing from one another, in good times and bad, sickness and health, etc. then I think its a bad idea. 

Rookie was right when he said "There is nothing like a scorned woman"... only problem is you are getting ready to have one who feels as if she is scorned before you even start out, and women have long memories...  you've been together for almost two years, and whereby, she is thinking the beginning of a married life, I guarantee you she will think you are thinking about the end already, which plays all sorts of head games on a women or man for that matter...  thoughts like "he wants all the perks without the commitment" will creep into the situation, and even IF she agrees to it, it will ALWAYS be in the back of her head (and yours)...  what do you think will be in the back of her head, right or wrong, when you present this?  "I've given myself exclusively to him and been waiting for almost two years and NOW when we are starting to talk marriage, he wants a pre-nup?" I'm a guy, and if it were me, I know I would ask that...  be prepared for the floodgate of questions she will most likely have for you...

Think about it... if you are questioning the circumstances of the end of the marriage, if she not then justified in questioning your long-term commitment to it?  Do you think this would make her feel MORE confident or LESS confident in the relationship? IMHO, a prenup gets you thinking about what's best for YOU (what YOU get) and not what's best for the BOTH OF YOU...

Add to it, in addition to a prenup, you are viewing the women you love, with whom you are thinking of marrying and spending the rest of your life with, and have spent almost two years with...   as a "renter"?  You don't think that will make her feel like an outsider?  It sounds like you are ALREADY separating yourself emotionally and financially from her...  Careful here, she may cynically decide to charge you "rent" for other things...   

It sounds like you two are starting out in life, whereas, you are more ahead of the game than she, so unless you are already a millionaire with a thriving business, with assets in place that need protecting, my vote is to carefully consider the idea of a prenup... if handled incorrectly, it can lead to more problems than it solves...

Best of luck...  and marry the girl already!   I mean you've been together almost two years, and even if you proposed TODAY, a wedding takes time to prepare, etc.  and you will most likely be together at least THREE years before you actually tie the knot...

I would encourage you to give ALL of yourself to your relationship, emotionally and financially... hold NOTHING back... you can't take the money with you, but you can have a great ride along the way making some great memories in the process!

[tatertot]

What a stupid woman. She thinks you are a couple and you think she is a renter with perks.

My suggestion is that you simply tell her that it is not "our" house, and in fact, you are moving without her.

I agree that a prenup is always a good idea, but that it should protect both parties.  You want no commitments of any sort. Set her free to go and find someone who will actually care what happens to her.

[rookieNYC]

Some good points from PO and tatertot but I have to add some things also..First off everyones case is different..As was mine when I got married..I had prior built up my assets and needed to protect my assets in the event the marriage didnt work out..I know its probably not the best way to go into a relationship but I dont think what I have worked for and accumulated prior to my meeting this person should be exposed to litigation in the event my marriage didnt work out..I did go further and seperate my income and investments,future earnings and make her waive her right to spousal support etc in the event of a divorce..And I did the same in return..My wife is a senior partner at a law firm so she makes a few bucks herself but all the same a marriage is a business relationship..I dont mean this is an insult because my own parents never had prenups,or antenuptials etc..But they also had very little money when they got married and built their life and financials together throughout the marriage..So if you are talking not a large sum of money then I dont think these contracts are suitable..PO is right that you should start off on the right foot but with %50+ of marriages ending in divorce nowadays I ask how can you NOT have something in place for a possible ending of the relationship...And fwiw I have a great marriage and love my wife very much..After signing it ,I have broken the agreement by putting real estate in her name only and other assets..What I learned by having this agreement is that my wife couldnt care about my money and that she signed it in a way to stick it up my a$$ so to say..If a woman has a problem with signing this agreement she is bad to begin with..There are too many women out there today who expect to get a free ride through life and sit back and become baby making machines and not *work that derives income to provide for the house*..I worded it that way because being a mother is considered a career and a worthy one at that..All the same I dont feel any woman deserves assets that were gained or created prior to the wedding...And if you can sneak in some more powerful clauses to compound your position I say why not..I know too many people who decided not to have these contracts and wish they had..Everyone knows some poor sap who got divorced only to have his underserving ex clean him out of more than she deserves..You will find out how powewrful her love and devotion is to you by having this contract..My wife and I have forgotten all about it and after so many years together I would NOT hold her to it..But the luxury of having it gives me the right to dictate what I feel is fair in the event the marriage ends..Not a judge,not her,not anyone but me..Sorry but Im a businessman and you are listening to a person who made it all myself..Nothing was given to me,not a penny..I guess if I grew up around money I wouldnt feel this way but the journey to success was so hard that I want to protect it any way I can..All the same the agreement also protected my wife and her assets,her 401k,her income and now she has plenty more than the contract dictated...This type of contract is a *just in case* contract...And I disagree that you have to set her free etc..See what happens and go from there...

[Milwaukee]

To clarify:

We are not engaged. Nor do we plan on it anytime soon.

Tatertot:

I don't expect you to fully understand the situation based on a paragraph. Let's just say that my girlfriend of over 2 years whom is older and makes more money than I do has racked up a LARGE amount of debt (first marriage started this) I have been sacrificing and subsidizing to help. Including but not limited to : full financial review/planning/budgeting, using MY cash to buy-out her auto loan, me selling her my car at 1/3 it's value, sacrificing and selling off all my toys to have cash in the bank, etc...

I do love this girl. However, I think I might be the rare and "taboo" person who looks at what problems can come down the road due to ignorance of the all too unfair practices of our judicial system. Seeing as half of all marriages end and most include litigation, why wouldn't I ask some questions to not get me in a bind later?  Again, to clarify; we are not even engaged. We just live together in an apartment.

Now, my question isn't about my relationship at all. Never have been never will be. My question was a little guidance request about the situation. IF we break up AS boyfriend girlfriend and she was living in the house that I bought alone, CAN she claim any of the house as hers IF she paid me $ monthly to live there?

[PositiveOutlook]

Milwaukee,

"18 months going strong, living together and all around happy, yet I will not consider putting the ring=contract on her finger until some of this bad debt she has is sorted out."

The above was from August 2009 and this is where I got the impression of marriage from... additionally, people who have lived together and stay together once someone buys a house, and they both reside in it, inferences of marriage are understandable (hence the "OUR house" comment from her)...  my mistake...  since you are not planning on getting married (although I have a hard time believing that after two years you haven't even discussed it), on to your other question.  

You already hinted that she has an expectation (i.e. - "OUR house") and being that you shared and apartment/rent before, and by asking her to kick in money towards the mortgage, without you drawing up a lease stating that she is indeed "renting" from you, and you have not clarified otherwise, a lawyer would definitely make a case.  After all, any money she gives you goes toward the mortgage and equity in the house.  If she is giving you money specifically for the mortgage, without a lease, she has rights...  Without anything in writing, she can say anything, and she has the canceled checks to prove it... what do you have? At the very least, you need to be clear to this women that you view this as YOUR house not OUR house...  be prepared for what follows is all I'm saying...

After two years, and no plans to ask her to marry, and you are only focused on what you can get out of the relationship money-wise, and definitely have a commitment issues with this women (which may be entirely valid), IMHO, it's time to come clean and be very clear on your intentions.  If not, legally or not, you are heading for problems...

But, why buy the cow, when the milks for free, right?...  Good luck...  


P.S. - Another thought is that IT IS YOUR HOUSE... you get all the benefits of ownership...  From what you have written, she is a guest is YOUR house...  Is the love you share with this woman worth $3-4K per year until you do get married??  Or do you plan on charging her "rent" after being married also?...

[rookieNYC]

Milwaukee
To answer your question that you posted...I do believe after 7 years of living together she can claim common law which *may* expose you to splitting your assets...I would advise you to meet with an attorney to find out your options..It seems like you feel quite responsible for this woman..

[Milwaukee]

Last two posts, thank you.

I am not one to try to get something from someone when I didn't earn it.  I am very steadfast about protecting what I have worked very hard for though.  After seeing my Father get burned twice I am very cautious with relationships+money.

I am not wealthy.  I don't have much but what I do have was truly earned.  I have a hard time with accepting that love = picking up half the bill of financial irresponsibility.  If I believed in this I would go max out my cards, have some fun and look for someone to fall in love with who would bail me out.

I am not bailing her out.  Really I can't financially.  I can however, guide her and teach her how to become more responsible with her money so that down the road, it CAN be "OUR" or "WE" instead of me/mine.  If she can do this then we can move forward.  If not, then the problems will escalate later since I would save and "mind the farm" while she "blew the wad".  That equals conflict.  What's the biggest thing a married couple fights about typically?  $, kids, ???

In my opinion, I am simply looking at potential problems and trying my best to plan ahead.  No different than insurance on a house.  Your home burning down is highly unlikely.  A relationship ending at some point is almost a sure bet.

[tatertot]

You have lived together a couple of years. You have shared expenses for your "family". You are buying a house after a couple of years of living together and she is going to help make the mortgage payments.

So the answer is "yes. She is going to feel that she has an interest in the ownership of the house. A judge might or might not agree with her.

I suggest that you get it cleared up before you move and make sure she understands that it is your house and you have no intention of sharing it with her. Make her sign something that states that she has no interest in the ownership of the house and will never claim any interest.

From where I am sitting, it sure looks like you are already planning on throwing her out in the gutter with the garbage as soon as you lose interest in her, with nothing for her to show for the years and $ that she has put into the relationship.  Don't be surprised if she feels the same way.

But maybe you can figure out a way to explain it to her that makes her think you are absolutely adorable.  I wish you the best of luck.

[Milwaukee]

Tatertot...??????

What $ has she put into anything?

Are you a woman scorned?

What are you talking about?

FYI, my mortgage payment is $304........I think I can handle that.  Why so low?  Large down payment made by me. 

Do I want to pay for the mortgage, tax, utilities all by myself?  nope.  I would love some help.  I don't want that help to come with one gigantic string attached IF it doesn't work out.  She has $350 per month freed up due to this investment I made.  Am I an ass for thinking I could get some help or should I just fully support her now so you don't think less of me.

[PositiveOutlook]

Milwaukee,

So what are we talking about here total...  mortgage, taxes, utilities, etc.  about $500?  So half would be $250?

The way I see this is this is the women you say you love... why not tell her to put that money towards either a joint savings account (maybe for a wedding... great motivator) in leiu of "rent", which you will both share in at some point in the future, or have her put it towards her debt, which will alleviate your concern about her debt while at the same time help her get on track, which is the same as you as a couple getting on track...

In either case, if she's not there, you still have to make the payment, so why not think of this as a way for you two to connect as a couple.  A shared sacrifice towards a future together...

If this is the woman you plan on spending your life with... I encourage you to think past your own self-interest and rather the interest of you two as a couple and your future.  You both have invested the past couple of years together...  think of the $250 as an investment towards your future together...  rather than a short term gain of $250 month...

Actions speak much louder than words in this case no matter what you decide to do...  Good luck...

[rookieNYC]

Milwaukee,
My advice is do what you feel is right..You cant live off the fruits of love so dont pay much attention to those other postings..In the real world it takes money in a currency form to pay bills..And the last thing you need is to play parent and financial advisor to your current gf..Have something drawn up and maybe she will get annoyed and leave,or maybe she will be thankful you were so upfront and sign..Its a win win for you..You have already witnessed what happens when these thngs arent taken care of in advance with your dad..2x none the less..Learn from his mistakes and move on..If she is a decent girl and truly cares for you she will sign with no questions asked..That will prove that she isnt just some mooch out for free ride..If she goes ballistic ranting and raving she is playing you for all its worth...And if she does sign I bet in time it will make your relationship stronger and you will grow closer and eventually you will want to give her more..Trust me..My wife taught me a valuable lesson by signing the antenuptial like she did..And she didnt even argue or say a word about..She said simply Im marrying  you for *you* not your money...Made me feel like a heel sort of but I had to protect myself and at the same time I really truly saw where she stood....Now 10 years later we have grown so close..Like I said if she doesnt sign or bitches about doing it dump her and dump her fast..