9/11 Conspiracy or Not?

[NJbird_dog]

Look, this topic can drag on for days so I'll avoid the minute detailed debates. None of our are experts and even if we were, it doesn't mean anything. To pull off a stunt like 9/11 required intel that none of us have or would be able to understand based on our experience or knowledge.

But I will say this, especially if you've been affected by this personally. You guys OWE IT TO YOURSEVES AND YOUR LOST ONES to investigate further into 9/11. Just as it pisses some people off to see those demonstrators ASK FOR TRUTH, it PISSES ME OFF to come across people who so calmly accept WHATEVER the media tells them. It's disgusting and I'LL NEVER accept the ridiculous official 9/11 story.

I live right across the river and it's one of the most personal issues of my lifetime. I've spent COUNTLESS hours.. no wait, COUNTLESS weeks/months trying to analyze 9/11 and put it all together. The most UNBELIEVABLE news I've EVER realized is that 9/11 was part of a global strategy that has been going on LONG BEFORE our time by powers that you and I don't even know exist.

***NEWS FLASH: 9/11 wasn't pulled off by a mysterious man living in a cave who hates our freedom and somehow defeated the most powerful national defense system in human history.

RookieNYC, just as you say the "morons" are riding gravy train of $$, what do you think these so called experts are doing? There's experts on both sides, PLENTY on the side of the so called morons. The "expert" formula is very simple in mainstream media. Anything the media wants to sell, they called their so-called experts to promote it to the sheeple.

You live in NY, have you gotten the swine flu vaccine yet b/c the media experts told you to get it? Because if you did, then keep in mind that the health care professionals in NY - surgeons, doctors, nurses, etc - signed a mandate that they REFUSE to be required to get the vaccine and will walk off the job if the state requires them to get it. So the same people trusted to give you this BS vaccine are not taking it themselves. But hey, the experts on the media are saying its good so it must be good, right?

fdjake, the pancake effect? If the floors pancaked on top of each other, then why was there NO RESISTANCE AT ALL as they were falling on top of each other? They fell at free fall speeds. Why was there no "pancake" of floors at the bottom of the rubble? EVERY single floor was pulverized into dust? Ok, if you say so.

Building #7 caught fire from debris falling onto it. It was never hit, NO STRUCTURAL DAMAGE. It burned for let's say 9 hours, from 9-5pm. Then it MYSTERIOUSLY collapsed into it's DEAD CENTER footprint. Let me say that again, the building fell in such an organized way that there was no falling debris, no falling floors, no structural damage, no chaotic fires shooting out the windows, but it just fell INTO ITS OWN FOOTPRINT from being burned for 9 hours.

How many buildings in the past 100 years are recorded to have fallen to LONG fires, past 9 hours, even 24hrs... ONLY 3 Buildings: 1) Tower #1 2) Tower #2 3) Building #7....DOESN'T ADD UP! Granted Twin towers were hit, but they 'reason' they fell and were pulverized were due to the fires/heat.

Want more details, how about the media outlet where the news reporter was standing in the far distance with building#7 being visible being him. Granted it was far behind him, but still visible. He announced that he just got news that building # 7 collapsed due to fires. THIS IS WHILE THE F@!#$@## BUILDING WAS VISIBLE BEHIND HIM.

I haven't scratched the surface yet. I'll go as deep as you guys want. This is surface level details that don't even get into the depth of the purpose behind 9/11 and the greatest lie ever told.

Who was it that said "The bigger the lie, the easier it becomes to believe"

[NJbird_dog]

Take a minute out and consider these:

Part 1/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odp1FO0Vmuw

They are only ONE minute long.. not long documentaries.

[fdjake]

What you DON'T KNOW about this subject could fill a football stadium...

First off.....NO RESISTANCE?????   Are you for real???

How much RESISTANCE do you think a ALREADY weakened structure needs to OVERCOME while FLOOR after FLOOR is being ADDED to the load???  Do you have ANY IDEA how the steel structural members were attached to each other in that Tower?????   Of coarse you don't....I DO....But don't let that deter your little flight of fancy here....Don't let those pesky FACTS get in your way....You WATCHED it from across a river.....I'll put my 20+ years of building and Firefighting experience up against your "across the river" observations any day of the week.

"How many buildings in the past 100 years have fallen to long fires???"

Here's where you REALLY show us how little you understand this subject matter....

1) Worchester Cold Storage Warehouse
2) Station night club fire 100 people died, building completely collapsed
3) Vendome Hotel Fire Boston Ma
4) Sao Paulo Brazil  CESP building
5) Vandergraft Apts. Pitts. PA
6) Newton Ma commercial multi story mall
7) Military personell record center Overland MO
8) Alexis Nihom Plaza Montreal Canada

That's just a SHORT LIST......ALL buildingS WILL collapse if you CAN NOT get WATER on that Fire and they burn long enough and hot enough.....SIMPLE....They'll burn until they DROP.

As far as your briliant theory on the REPORTER standing with building 7 in the back ground????

The report that he gave was based on RADIO TRANSMISSIONS FROM FDNY Command.....reporters were CONSTANTLY monitoring the Fire ground channels during that incident.   COMMAND had sent out an EMERGENCY MESSAGE that building 7 was showing signs of an IMMINENT COLLAPSE....FDNY Commanders on the ground cleared the PILE of ALL rescuers when these signs were observed...That is standard operating procedure for ANY Fire department.   That message is sent out VIA Radio and also with a series of LONG BLASTS on the air horns of on site apparatus.  This is done so ALL personal can hear the evacuation signal regardless of whether thay have radio communications or not...THAT is where the reporter got that info...He, as MOST REPORTERS do at these scenes got a PART of the story.....and as we all know FDNY commanders were RIGHT, that building DID collapse...I know you may find this hard to believe but being a Firefighter and reaching the rank of a Battalion Chief or District Chief means you've SEEN enough of these signs to UNDERSTAND what you are dealing with.....ADD IN the fact that these guys JUST lost 300+ men and they were obviously VERY concerned about the condition of building 7 as it was BURNING with absolutley NO WATER being put on it....It wasn't a matter of IF 7 collapsed.....JUST WHEN!

Once AGAIN...This "reporter story" is a CLASSIC example of a simple, but REAL DETAIL, that all the FRUIT LOOPS out there DON'T MENTION!!!!
The amazing thing....ALL those radio transmissions are RECORDED and TIME STAMPED by FDNY Fire Alarm Headquarters.....It's very EASY to listen to the tapes and then check it against the orignal reporters story which is also time stamped by that station......NEWS FLASH.....IT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE!!!!  The REPORTER SCREWED UP.

See this is what happens when you BELIEVE everything you see on YOU TUBE and just accept it for FACT!!!  You end up lookng like a complete JOKE when TIME LINES are laid out and REAL knowledge of operations that day are provided.

You mention that the building had BURNING debris dropped into it.....
I've CUT THROUGH roofs like that at fires.....It's just corrigated STEEL. some foam insulation and THAT'S IT.....Once that corrigated steel sheeting is breached YOU'RE IN THAT BUILDING.....If the DEBRIS has fallen from 100 stories.....IT'S GOING INTO THAT BUILDING.....and that building is going to burn from the CENTER outward.....PERFECT conditions for an eventual COLLAPSE!!!!

Another point......Ever been in a multi story PARKING GARAGE?????  What's COVERING all that STEEL????

FIRE PROOFING!!!

Gee....I wonder WHY all those BUILDERS just DECIDED to cover EVERY SQ INCH of STEEL with fire proofing????  Could it be that a CAR FIRE in the past caused the COMPLETE COLLAPSE of a STEEL parking garage???

Y E S

Here's a TIP.......When a JUMBO JET slams into a building at 500mph.....the FIRE PROOFING is NOT DESIGNED to take that.....The steel AND the nearby fire proofing are DESTROYED......Now just what do you think HAPPENS to all the EXPOSED STEEL as FIRE heats it.....FIRE that was NEVER suppose to TOUCH those supports....

ANSWER...........THEY FAIL......At the connection points and once THEY GO the entire 20 stories ABOVE that level comes crashing down and with every floor added to the collapse it CASCADES down.  This is a FACT...Not THEORY..

Stick to fixing wrecked cars.

[furnishedowner]

NJbird-dog,
Aren't you lucky that you can get your questions answered about 9-11 right here on this site by an actual fire expert, FDjake.

You don't also believe that the Holocaust didn't happen, do you?  And that men didn't really walk on the moon?

Don't forget the other well-documented terrorist bombings in London, Madrid, and on and on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

At least I don't hear people debating whether the earth is flat or not anymore.

Furnishedowner

[fdjake]

Those videos are complete GARBAGE and have been PROVEN false by ENGINEERS that not only designed the Trade Center towers but also built MODELS to simulate similar conditions during the 9/11 incident.  

If you REALLY believe this crap.....I honestly have lost a lot of respect for you....It's pathetic.

[NJbird_dog]

First off, I wish by the end of this discussion that I can be convinced that 9/11 happened as the official story claims. It will give me more peace that you'll ever know. So take your best shots.. I wanna hear every perspective that I'm missing.

I never claimed to be an expert and I also don't take you as an expert on this subject.. but to answer your question, how much resistance would I expect? Give me a NANOSECOND on each floor, or ONE second for the 100+ floors, how about half a second total? As the resistance was being built, the initial floors SHOULD have had even a milli-second of resistance before the loads were added to each floor. If you don't want to give me resistance, then show me the result of pancaked 100+ floors on the bottom of the rubble beyond just dust and debris. Explain how pancaking floors can shoot debris up to 600 ft away from the building in all angles, specifically upwards. 

But I'm not an expert, so let's move beyond that.

The list of buildings you gave me:

1) Worchester STORAGE WAREHOUSE vs a sky scraper?
According to wikipedia, this fire burns FOR SIX DAYS before being brought under control. No mention of collapse in its footprint, if you know it, then please post.

2) Station night club fire 100 people died vs. sky scraper
"The structure was a single story wood frame building with a footprint of about 4484 square feet."
Sorry...no comparison.

3) Vendome Hotel Fire Boston Ma
"It took nearly three hours to stop the blaze... Then, at 5:28 PM, without warning, the southeast section of the building collapsed." "the subsequent collapse was attributed to the failure of an overloaded seven-inch steel column whose support had been weakened when a new duct had been cut beneath it, exacerbated by the extra weight of water used to fight the fire on the upper floors."
Not convincing enough, didn't fall into it's own footprint... so no comparison to building #7.

4) Sao Paulo Brazil  CESP building
PArtial CORE collapse: http://www.fpemag.com/images/content/Summer2005/DuetoFire03-01_tn.jpg

5) Vandergraft Apts. Pitts. PA
The "old" wood Vandergrift apartments in Pittsburgh, PA (Belser, 2000) totally collapsed on.....
Wood vs structured steel...... no comparison

6)Newton Ma commercial multi story mal
"a 4-story, brick commercial building collapsed about one hour after the start of the fire, with the upper stories collapsing onto the floors below."
Doesn't compare to a skyscraper.

AND SO ON.............

I don't know the framing of these building, but I do know that they weren't the same as the WTC towers. So we aren't comparing apples to apples here. How about I give you a list of building that burned for hours without collapse, skyscrapers, not small nightclubs or 4-story buildings.

As for the reporter, OK I'll accept your view. It's not a major detail, could've been a simple mistake. FINE. Let's move past that b/c it's not a significant detail. Even if I'm right, it's not convincing enough so let's put it aside.

As for building #7 and falling debris. Have you seen the collapse of this building?? It wasn't partial, wasn't from specific damage, wasn't from intense fires shooting from every window. It was a calm, precise, collapse where the building fell equally from EVERY ANGLE.

But again, I'm not an expert and neither are you. I got better info coming, and I promise they'll get you thinking and questioning your own views.

Time to shovel some of this 16 inches of snow......

[fdjake]

OK......Using YOUR LOGIC....

Show me all the 100+ story buildings in HISTORY, hit by Jumbo Jets LOADED with fuel, traveling at 500 mph, and hit at the top 1/3 of the structure that are STILL STANDING!!!! 

Here's a little bit better source than YOUTUBE where you apparently get your "facts" from.  This is from a PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER writing for STRUCTURE Magazine.....A periodical for STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS and BUILDERS....But hey......These guys could ALL be in on  it too.

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf


But hey.....Don't let EDUCATED EXPERTS sway you here....

Move on to something else......You're DROWNING here.

[NJbird_dog]

Using my logic, let's focus on Building #7, which was never hit by jumbo planes.


Let's put your one engineer against 1000+ engineers, but hey don't let the educated experts sway your views:
http://www.ae911truth.org/



I'll tell you what, rather than going back and forth on these details, I'll share a different perspective. These details on buildings collapsing are NOT the only argumentative factors. I'll post soon......

[fdjake]

Don't bother...

Here's some background on ae911's founder....

http://911Guide.googlepages.com/ae911truth

Apparently YOU didn't do much research into this QUACK.....Basically he works on HIGH SCHOOLS. 
Hasn't produced a SINGLE technical paper on 9/11 HIMSELF (it's all a cut and paste job from other peoples works)  He basically takes SNIPETS like the BS you posted about the reporter and weaves them into his whacked out theories.

The 1000's or engineers and architects you mentioned????  You better do a little more RESEARCH pal.....Half these idiots he lists as professionals are using FAKE names like the reporter claiming to be an ENGINNER that this nit wit has now quoted for YEARS now without ever even checking his backgrund.  Another FACT.....The THOUSAND Engineers you mention.....IF you merely sign up for at web site YOU'RE AGREEING WITH THIS QUACK because he's using THOSE numbers as his SUPPORTS......HUNDREDS of Pro's had been asked to have their NAMES taken off that list because they DO NOT agree with ANY of these theories.  But their names REMAIN.

But don't let FACTS get in your way....

Also......Don't waste your time sending me anymore PM's asking me for advice. I promise you I won't be WASTING my time responding to them.  If you believe this TRASH there's nothing more I have to discuss with you.

[christopher w]

Here is a link to an article about some photos that were taken from police helicopters. Pretty dramatic stuff.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-02-10-wtc-images-new_N.htm

I remember when it was all happening and I can see where it would be hard to believe that it was "real" because of the enormity of the situation, but I just find it very hard if not impossible to believe that the entire thing was a plan or somehow setup to happen. There were just too many variables that all fell into place that if changed just slightly would have thrown everything off.

There are bad people out there who do nothing all day long but think of ways to destroy this country. And for our own citizens to waste time trying to blame it on the government is even worse. I have never been to ground zero in NY, but I have been to the Ok. City memorial and I can honestly say that it brings me to tears each time I have been there. So for people to show up at ground zero and accost surviviors and relatives of the victims is unconscionable. I am surprised that there has never been reported violence because if someone I knew and loved had died in either of these despicable acts of terror I would be opening a GIGANTIC can of whoop a** on someone that showed up while I was mourning and tried to pull some ridiculous bullcrap like protesting.

Try telling a WW2 veteran  that Pearl Harbor was setup so we could attack the Japanese. Your asking to get whacked with a cane or a walker.

[fdjake]

Another FAVORITE?????

the MOON landing was STAGED in HOLLYWOOD!!!

Here's what happens when you tell a former FIGHTER PILOT, that graduated from WEST POINT , flew 66 missions and had 2 MIG KILLS in Korea, and received a DOCTURITE from MIT that he never walked on the moon.....

BIG MISTAKE for this LOSER....

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZOo6aHSY8hU&NR=1

[NJbird_dog]

Wow.. ok so since you can't prove your points, you attack details that make no sense and get emotional about it.

Insignicant: creator of the website
Significant: The 1000+ engineers are real.

Funny how you always rant about the masses following the hype but here you are doing the same thing and ignoring any new information that comes your way. Well there you have it fdjake, at least you can relate to them now. Just shut the brain of if it means you have to challenge your views.


The TRUTH is: This information is THE HARDEST THING YOU'LL EVER TRY TO ABSORB. It requires challenging your views on EVERYTHING since 9/11. Most people's brains won't bother, and I didn't expect people to be convinced from my posts but at least consider the alternatives. But don't you dare try to accuse me of wasting my time with digging deeper into an event that changed this world.

[christopher w]

My son and I watched an episode of Mythbusters a few months ago where they went through all of the myths of the moonlanding being staged and they disproved every single one of them. That is a good show for those of you out there that like myths and conspiracies. Some get proved others get disproved but it is neat stuff to watch.

[phlemboy]

I remember watching a documentary on how the towers came down. It was a long time ago but i remember the engineer saying that heat generated by the burning jet fuel was unsustainable for any building. The structure basically melted and collapsed floor by floor. That's pretty much in line with what FDJAKE said... I think.. 

Hoosier, I don't want ANYONE carrying a handgun on a PRESSURIZED airplane at 3,000 feet. Let alone any Tom, Dick and Harry. It only takes one nitwit to have gun go off to send the plane to the ground...

[Mdhaas]

Make sure that we keep the personal attacks and name calling out of the posts.

Thanks