9/11 Conspiracy or Not?

[Hoosier4life2005]

Come on children... lets keep the peace.

[rookieNYC]

NJ Bird Dog,,
 Im not going to insult you in any way but what I would like to know is where you feel you have the experience or knowledge to disregard fdjake and phlemboy's background on these topics..Your last post you totally disregarded factual data provided and you were the one going on the defensive..This kind of condescending tone is what bothers me the most with the entire *truthers* movement..They consistently disregard people who have spent their *entire* life in the trades ...Then the only factual data you can provide is some pro-conspiracy 9/11 website..Im sorry to say that you lose this debate hands down..By a mile at that...I feel fdjake got annoyed because I can relate when someone questions my area of expertise which I have based my lifes work in it *enrages* me..Especially when its some college kid who honestly hasnt made his way in the world yet and all he/she is doing is using the google search bar to battle...I dont know what you do for a living nor do I care but how would you feel if I all of a sudden started telling you how to do it just because I did some BS searches on the net?...Its disrepectful and that is I how view these Loose Change *kids*...Its just disrespectful..

[phlemboy]

Well said RookieNYC. Since you and FDJAKE have personal ties to 9/11, that sparked a heated debate with NJ Birdog. There are a lot things the govt. "covers up" im sure, but 9/11 wasn't one of them. I don't like it when propaganda gets spread around as fact. I guess we all have to remember not to take everything as fact without do our own fact finding and critical thinking.

[NJbird_dog]

RookieNYC, I'll reply to you since you were the OP. I didn't disregard their posts. I did address them, but I won't refer to them as experts in the areas of building demolition, structural integrity of steel, chemistry, physics, or engineering. My earlier post said "None of our are experts and even if we were, it doesn't mean anything. To pull off a stunt like 9/11 required intel that none of us have or would be able to understand based on our experience or knowledge. "

fdjake is a firefighter, he puts out fires and deals with burning buildings. That doesn't make him an expert in the field of physics, engineering, etc. fdjake's "factual" listings of buildings were all irrelevant. Did you catch that? I only looked up each building, not to prove him wrong, but because I WANTED TO KNOW. If he was right, it would have been GREAT.

Phlemboy worked for a steel company 7 years out of highschool, so that makes him an expert on the structural integrity of steel? Does his example of beams being 3/16 to 3/8" relates to the beams of the WTC so he can factually state that the melting of steel brought down the towers? And I don't mean any of that in a condescending way.

My posts aren't based off random google searches, I don't live in my own little world of conspiracy, and this topic is new ONLY to those people whose primary source of info comes from mainstream media. Let's be honest, there is PLENTY of good info out in the internet that isn't available elsewhere. This forum is an example. Not everything from a google search or youtube video is BS when viewed with a critical mind.

The Loose Change *kids* were the first to do a documentary. And since then they've been replaced by better documentaries that make their's look like a cartoon. If you were really interested, then you would look over reviews done by physicists, engineers, architects, eyewitnesses, ETC. They raise GOOD questions. Form your own conclusions, but don't ignore the alternative sources to mainstream media.

That's all I have to say. I'm not trying to win a debate or play GOTCHA. I only jumped into this discussion b/c you stated you lost 2 close members and I felt you SHOULD consider alternative viewpoints of the actual event because it took me YEARS to believe any of this. But once my eyes were opened to it, I was never able to look at things the same again.

If you're happy knowing the story as its told, well hey, to each his own.

[phlemboy]

NJ Birdog. Yes my work in structural steel actually DOES give me credibility becacause I'VE ACTUALLY BUILT AND ERECTED steel structures. I know that the beams tie into the columns through a 4 to 6 bolt connection. I also know what it takes to cut, weld and bend steel. You need the right amount HEAT. When we needed to straighten out a beam that was bent, we applied heat with a torch right on the bend point. The beam would expand and then contract. We would keep doing that until it was straight. In a fire fueled by jet fuel and oxygen was enough to compromise the steel structure that was there (it doesn't have to acually melt). The steel will distort due to the, therefore causing the contact points to fail. The impact of taking out the supporting columns so the weight is now shifted to beams (which were not meant for that load) added  to it. When it comes to engineers, I've dealt with structural engineers before. Often times they have no actual working knowledge if something can or can't be done.. What i've laid out are FACTS. Not questions where there could be a million possibilities. I'd like to hear your side backed up with facts.

[propertymanager]

Is it really hard to believe that when a large jet filled with jet fuel smashes into a building, that the combination of the damage done by the impact and the resulting fire could cause the the building to collapse?  Is it more likely that the buildings were brought down by some secret plot than the actual jets we actually saw hit the buildings?  C'mon!

[NJbird_dog]

Phlemboy I'm not discrediting your experience. You guys are taking this off on a tangent.

Here's what we agree on:

1) The JETS crashing into the towers caused SIGNIFICANT amounts of damage, enough to BRING DOWN THE TOWERS. This is OBVIOUS. The designers of the WTC said the towers should have absorbed the crash, they were WRONG. BUT, they DID have preparations in place. It wasn't a "we never thought a plane would hit and when it hit, the towers just completely collapsed." The questions arise when you ANALYZE THE COLLAPSE of the towers, the rubble or lack of on the ground, the way the debris shoots upwards and out up to 600ft away, ETC.

Here's what RookieNYC was not aware of, how many others weren't aware of this:
2) Building #7 WAS NOT HIT, and it was the first steel structure to collapse in it own footprint due to FIRE. I don't mean the steel bent, weakened, and gave way irregularly. I mean a systematic, equally distributed collapsed into the dead center of its foot print.

3) PLENTY more that we won't even get into b/c this somehow become a mechanical debate

NOW that we agree on the obvious. Without repeating more details, I'll make this point: There are A LOT OF QUESTIONS that come up once you analyze the events further. Questions that have NO answers, HENCE, Re-open the investigation.

This isn't ALL about the mechanical details of 9/11. You guys seem to forget that there was a world before 9/11 and a VERY DIFFERENT world after 9/11. And the one who gained most WASN'T the cave dweller who supposedly pulled all this off.

Propertymanager, this event is NO DIFF than your knowledge of the fed reserve from ALTERNATIVE sources that are NOT mainstream. How difficult is it for you to explain that to someone who only knows mainstream views??

[phlemboy]

Well the original topic was about RookieNYC's frustration with the insensitivity of the people protesting in a spot where people came to mourn and remember. This turned into a structural issue when you questioned the fact the steel structure was not compromised. The problem is that you can question ANYTHING. The question itself doesn't make you point or change actual FACTS.  You have a lot of questions but that doesn't warrant an investigation. You need PROOF and VERIFIABLE FACTS to support your theory..which you don't have... But let's assume you're right and an investigation is warranted.. Who is going to perform the investigation? How do we know they're not going to cover it up? By your logic, we can't trust own govt.. Who can we trust??? See? I have a lot of questions too.... When you have forum members that have personal ties to this subject and or knowledge of the various areas of the scenero, you better come with something better that theories and questions if you wan to be taken seriously IMO.

[christopher w]

I don't want to restart this argument but I thought y'all might find this interesting.

A candidate in the governers race here in Texas was asked about her thoughts on 9/11 and the "truther" movement by none other than Glenn Beck in a recent interview. When she responded with "I think some very good questions have been raised in that regard," and "There are some very good arguments, and "I think the American people have not seen all of the evidence there, so I have not taken a position on that."

She just blew up her campaign.

This woman has been in debates with current governer Rick Perry and Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison. She was really picking up speed in her campaign to be the republican candidate.

Here is a link to the interview.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/196/36197/

I can't imagine that there is any way for her to recover from this. Not here in Texas. No way Texans would ever allow themselves to be put in a situation where the Governer was giving credence to something like this.

There is a saying my friends and I have and typically it is only applied in dating situations and women. The saying is

"You can only hide crazy for so long."

I think it can now be applied to politics as well.

[sellnbama]

Christopher,

 I was listening to Beck that morn.(yesterday).Now they are trying to turn it on him as "gotcha question".He said this morning "this is the type question if you woke me in the middle of the night and asked I would say hell no,I'm going back to sleep."

 You hit the nail on the head with your quote,,this is the majority of politicians.Smile and wave and tell lies to get elected,,then tell more to stay in office or blame someone else.It's good to see they still have their head in the sand and beleive this is gonna keep them in office.More people are up to date on their govt and waiting on the first chance to express theirselves at the poles.It's wonderful to see these politicians under such a spotlight,,helps us to see who they really are.

 I heard a woman caller recomend a good idea,,what if we took took away the party letter beside the names on the voting ballets?This would force the small minds to be a little more informed on who they are voting for.What do you think?

[christopher w]

I think that is a good idea. What is really sad are the people that just walk in and hit the "all republican" or "all democrat" buttons. If your just voting for someone because of the party they have affiliated themselves with you are asking for big trouble.

[NJbird_dog]

Chris,
Glad you posted that. I think the biggest hole in the truth movement is blaming the government. That term government has become too ambiguous. Remember, even the Federal Reserve is referred to as the government and WE KNOW they're an independent institution.

You're talking about blaming the same institution that is trusted with our LIVES but gets more and more control of our lives as the days pass. Not to mention, after 9/11 the gov. had a free-for-all in doing whatever they wanted with our rights and that old document called the constitution.

But, I don't blame the government.
The gov. includes things like congress.
Congress has legitimate politicians with families.
Were they all "in on 9/11"?
NO....

Dig deeper................

Is it really too hard to believe in the WAR STRATEGY of uniting and controlling populations with the threat of a common enemy, constant fear throughout our lives... and using INSANE tactics to further an even more INSANE agenda?

Well if that's too hard to believe.. you should take the red pill and go back to lala land. Otherwise, take the blue pill and see how deep the rabbit hole goes (from the movie Matrix).........

Look at this PHOTO!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.speakupfightback.org/images/C_Drive/wtc7.gif

"For we are opposed, around the world, by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence; in infiltration instead of invasion; on subversion instead of elections, on intimidation instead of free choice; on guerrillas by night instead of armies by day. It is a system which has conscripted vast human and material resources into the building of a tightly knit, highly efficient machine that combines military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, scientific, and political operations. Its preparations are concealed not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined, its dissenters are silenced, not praised; no expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed." - JFK

[rookieNYC]

Is it really too hard to believe in the WAR STRATEGY of uniting and controlling populations with the threat of a common enemy, constant fear throughout our lives... and using INSANE tactics to further an even more INSANE agenda?

Yeah there is no reason to believe that Iran has nuclear ambitions...

Yeah there is no reason to think North Korea has no nuclear ambitions...

Yeah there is no reason to think extremists in Pakistan will get their hands on nuclear weapons...

Yeah there is no reason to believe Saddam needed to be taken down..What a nice guy he was...

Yeah there is no reason to have the Patriot Act..What are you hiding?..

Yeah there is no one attempting to take down our airliners with underwear bombs....

Yeah the bombings in Madrid,London,Nairobi,Bali were make believe.....

Yeah there is no reason to believe Osama Bin Laden exists....Just cave dweller as you say....

Yeah there is no reason to worry about any of this stuff...Its one big conspriacy....

Light that Bong up and take another deep PULL....

[NJbird_dog]

Maybe you should put that bong down and stop taking deep pulls.

Don't have a response for that domino-effect comment... not sure what to even make of it.