listing in MLS

[Buckeyes]

Mike, you have your exceptions and rules backwards.  Again, I'm not saying that some realtors don't do specialty work and earn their money, I'm just saying that the ratio of hacks to quality agents is very high, and that because of a protected system (that should be illegal as any other restricted trade would be) even low quality MLS watchers still make good money at the expense of people who really don't need them.  
If you're truly a good agent who offers value to your clients, good for you!  If you would drop any client who doesn't think that a real estate license makes you walk on water - well, you'd be dropping me really quickly I guess.  For some reason it seems like I know more people who have gotten a R.E. license than I do people who have made it through Harvard Law.  Must be some reason for that, you think?

[Infowell]

"...(that should be illegal as any other restricted trade would be)..."

Ohhhhh, OK...now I get it. I may not be the brightest bulb in the knife block, but I do eventually get it...you're one of those.

You & I are chasms apart & will obviously never agree. Readers will have to decide for themselves who they'd rather be getting advice from.

I word on disrespect...it's usually reciprocated. While it may be fashionable for our politicians to bash each other...the way to make ourselves look good IS NOT by attempting to make others look bad (especially entire professions).

"...you'd be dropping me really quickly I guess."

It's only good business sense, for how can you taste my cup of tea Qwai Chang...if yours is already full?

[niravmd]

the anonymity of the web allows many people who are quite nice in real life to become rude and condesending.

are you one of those mike, or are you really like this?

[Buckeyes]

I'm sure Mike is a good guy, we just disagree on whether some realtors are good or all realtors are good.  It's commendable to stand up for your profession, it's just not a position we are ever likely to agree on.

[Infowell]

This will be my last word on this topic.

There are those reading these posts who need to understand the FREE advice they're getting in some instances could cost them dearly. There's much anymosity towards Real Estate Agents on this site & it would appear I'm wasting my valuable time giving free advice (the hatemongers shout too loud & too often). I've no intention of continually debating with those who hold such apparent disdain for an entire profession.

"...are you one of those mike, or are you really like this?" My qualifications speak for themselves. I'm a professional with an extensive background & education in the field of real estate (& I also invest)...I don't just play one on the Internet.

Further, my comments are defensive of an industry painted by some here with a broad brush (defensive...not offensive). For instance:

"...so the "condo king" was really a "condo jackass". FYI...novices would be well advised NOT to rely on "comps" provided by a title company (that's coming from an expert).

I'm just saying that the ratio of hacks to quality agents is very high, and that because of a protected system (that should be illegal as any other restricted trade would be)

The investor can show and sell the property faster than an agent. Wrong! The typical investor tends to have a day job (it's a part-time gig @ best). My wife & I sold our last three listings all within 5 days...all with multiple offers.

There's much valuable information here & I intend on shopping. However, in the case of the Forums: Those who know can't talk (unless they want a debate), and quite often...those talking don't appear to know (I've read more counterfactual information in some posts than I could address in an afternoon).

[Roger J]

Infowell/Mike,

Reply or not, your choice.  You know I respect you.  Heck, we even agree on 80-90% of this debate.  I don't like it either when these discussions start becoming offensive, so let's look at it another way.

Let me defend (not offend) my position on the quote that you took from my post.  The investor can show and sell the property faster than an agent.  You say that that is wrong because the typical investor is part time.  I agree.  I should have said the professional investor.  Did you sell your houses quickly because you are an agent, or because you are a professional in your industry and have learned the business?

Let's look at something.  You said the parttime investor couldn't do as good a job as a RE agent.  However, some 50% of licensed agents are part time (can confirm with National board of REALTORS).  Can they do a better job than the fulltime, professional investor?

You're right, of course about the anymosity towards RE agents, but it doesn't come without complete warrant.  On a personal note, I went through 5 agents before I found one that I could work with, that I felt really knew how to do her job.  Now, that I own an agency, I can just look at the agents there.  Some of them, frankly, shouldn't be in the business.  They don't have the drive to succeed, and in some instances, the brains to comprehend how to succeed.  The sad part is, it's not uncommon.

As I said before, you're a good agent.  A true professional that knows what needs to be done.  You probably surround yourself with like individuals.  Maybe that's why you don't see the bad agents (or maybe it's just because everyone here is jumping on and you're just in a defensive mood, who knows )

Let's take a look at that other perspective I mentioned.  Let's look at RE investors.  Man, I hate it when I hear people say that RE investors are crooks, scam artists, slum lords, etc. etc.  I jump up and defend them (and myself) immediately.  Then they push an article in your face about how an investor is being investigated for fraud, scamming, etc. and I say, "True, but that's not the norm.  MOST investors aren't like that."  Isn't that what we do?

The sad truth is that MOST investors ARE like that.  Few do anything illegal intentionally, but through ignorance and lack of education, investors get into all kinds of messes that make it look bad for the profession as a whole.  Don't believe it?  Look through the newspapers at the articles on it.  Look at the some of the state laws trying to prevent it.  Heck, look at the questions and comments in these and other REI forums.  I can't count how many times I've seen things like, "I put a house under contract, do I need to get a loan?," "Is it okay if I say this is a personal residence if I'm going to be renting it out, I mean I've done it 5 times already,"  You want that tenant out, easy.  Just have the power turned off, or change the locks when their not home,"  "I bought a house Subject 2, but I didn't find a tenant/buyer for 3 months, so didn't make though payments, is that bad?"  I could go on (and on), but I think you get the point.  

New investors, and agents too, are led to believe that all you have to do is hang your name on the door, so to speak, and the money will flow in.  We both know that that just isn't true.  When they find that that isn't true, most backup, bailout, or drift along, just trying to get by.  And when that happens, it's the professionals that's left to clean up the mess.


Still a good debate, infowell.

Can't we just all get along?

Group HUG! :-* :-*

Raj

[Buckeyes]

Raj,
All very well said.  

Mike,
If you and your wife sold your last 3 listings all w/in 5 days with multiple offers, do you think that may be a very big sign that you're leaving money on the table (your clients money, more specifically)?
Also,  don't take everthing so personally.  No one is ripping on you as an indiviual.  It's not your job to defend the entire profession.  Wouldn't it be easier to just say "yes, there are many agents out there who don't do as much as they could for their customers, but when you find a true professional, your money will be well spent."  I think we'd all agree with that and you wouldn't be in the position of having to defend people who CLEARLY can not be justifiably defended.
As far as the free advice goes, when you joined in on this discussion, it was in response to my original posting asking, essentially, "if I and the buyer do all the work, what is to say that I am obligated to give the buyers agent (on a fsbo) a full 3%".  Your free advice didn't answer my question, so how much am I really out?  Unless you truly believe that you have nothing to gain from anyone else's experience, you are on these forums to learn as well as to teach.  You joined this forum to put down my question (good oats), not to answer it.

That being said, I take nothing away from your experience.  Offering more than the standard 3%, though not what I was asking about, is a great idea, and I therefore have already learned from you.  Though it is not what I am starting out with, it very well may be a direction I go in the near future.

I, along with nearly everyone else, appreciate the advice of all knowledgable people on this site, and that includes yours.  But, you can't come in expecting everyone to agree on every topic.  

Good luck in all you do.

[justmyopinion]

here's a thought, if Roger J is a broker who owns an agency and he has that much disdain for the agents in his agency why does he not select smarter, qualified, professional agents to represent his agency.  the problem is the selection process of agents by brokers who just want mirror foggers....

[Roger J]

Ooo, it's jump on ol' Raj time is it?

Well, jmo, if you're going to jump, better jump a little farther than that because you missed the landing old boy.

I never said that I was a broker, or even an agent.  I said that I OWNED the agency.  I also never said anywhere that I distained any agent in my firm, or any agent in general.  In fact, I think that I said that I like agents very much.  They make me money.  You've made alot of errorenous assumptions of me from your obvious quick glance through the posts.  You know, assuming things, instead of actually knowing, is what usually gets people in trouble in the first place.

...why does he not select smarter, qualified, professional agents to represent his agency [sic]? (btw, why is a question, and questions end with a question mark)  You take what you can get, jmo.  Truth is MOST of my agents are smarter, qualified, professional agents.  They are because we TRAIN them to be that way.  Most agencies don't.  It's pretty much up to the agents to figure out how to list and sell without over/under pricing, how to properly market, how to talk with customers over the phone, etc., etc.

the problem is the selection process of agents by brokers who just want mirror foggers....
Well, I really don't even know what that is supposed to mean.  Why would I want someone fogging my mirrors?  I kinda like my mirrors clean and shiny.  

Toodles!

Raj

[niravmd]

"...are you one of those mike, or are you really like this?" My qualifications speak for themselves. I'm a professional with an extensive background & education in the field of real estate (& I also invest)...I don't just play one on the Internet.


"...so the "condo king" was really a "condo jackass". FYI...novices would be well advised NOT to rely on "comps" provided by a title company (that's coming from an expert).

every time you post, my opinion of you just drops lower and lower. your replies do not answer any of my questions. when asked if you were rude in real life you answered that your qualifications speak for themselves. whats sort of stupid reply is that?

you also think the the comps i pulled which showed a higher price than the listing agents[who incidentally sold the home for less than i sold mine] were inferior since i used the largest title company in the world and the agent used the mls (and got his wrong)???

i used agents a lot, but i probably would never use you. your ego clouds your judgement.

[Infowell]

"If you and your wife sold your last 3 listings all w/in 5 days with multiple offers, do you think that may be a very big sign that you're leaving money on the table (your clients money, more specifically)?"

Yeah...I'll jump back into the fray because, I think it's important to understand that there are readers here looking for advice, and what they're getting instead is the biased, hateful diatribe of a few.

Rather than address a few caustic, and antagonistic individuals who make it impossible to get a professional thought in edgewise...I'll caution those reading these boards (who're looking for viable investment advice) to read between the lines, and choose wisely who to listen to, and who likes listening to themselves.

A good example would be the "leaving money on the table comment." I am unknown to this person...my clients, and assignments are unknown to this person...so they wouldn't know that (without exception) those clients were all extremely happy with our service, and have given us referrals already.

Moreover, they'd be unaware that I routinely work for state & federal agencies, Builders/Developers, banks, savings and loans, mortgage firms, employee transfer companies, private parties, attorneys, insurance companies, and Investors. I'm paid well, and my knowledge & experience is valued, and I've a very high rating among some of these companies for accuracy (I'm judged by the marketplace everyday...not by somebody on the Internet who doesn't know me). Our niche IS VALUATION, thanks to an extensive appraisal background. Further, I worked as a consultant overseas to an international construction company.

Readers may also query how some--who claim to be from real estate backgrounds (and other professions)--get along with those who don't think they "do little" for their services.

Think about that for a moment...I'll promise 99.999999% of real estate agents DO NOT think they "do little." In fact...most of would be extremely insulted by such comments as they know just how hard they work.

Think about how the real estate community would treat such individuals (claiming to be from such backgrounds) if they knew their prejudices. They'd be ostracized...no one would want to work with, or around them, and they'd be drummed out of the business...I can assure you.

In closing, I'd be very, very careful about who I accepted free advice from--it could cost you dearly--I've seen it before.

When in doubt, use the services of a professional, and ignore the Internet Boo Birds who paint entire professions with a broad negative brush.

[Roger J]

Yeah...I'll jump back into the fray because, I think it's important to understand that there are readers here looking for advice, and what they're getting instead is the biased, hateful diatribe of a few.

Yourself included, I hope.  Your comments have, afterall, been very biased.  Personally, I don't see where the hateful and diatribe posts are though.  Spiteful and retaliatory, probably.  Okay, maybe a little bitter, but nothing abusive.

Rather than address a few caustic, and antagonistic individuals who make it impossible to get a professional thought in edgewise...

At least professional thoughts that don't agree with their own professional thoughts, right?

I'll caution those reading these boards (who're looking for viable investment advice) to read between the lines, and choose wisely who to listen to

No argument there.  

and who likes listening to themselves.

For example: Moreover, they'd be unaware that I routinely work for state & federal agencies, Builders/Developers, banks, savings and loans, mortgage firms, employee transfer companies, private parties, attorneys, insurance companies, and Investors. I'm paid well, and my knowledge & experience is valued, and I've a very high rating among some of these companies for accuracy (I'm judged by the marketplace everyday...not by somebody on the Internet who doesn't know me). Our niche IS VALUATION, thanks to an extensive appraisal background. Further, I worked as a consultant overseas to an international construction company.

A good example would be the "leaving money on the table comment."

Well, in this case, I think that mine might be the better example.  True, it's a little forward and crude, but given the nature of this "debate" it's no more so than your comments/replies.  Afterall, you've pretty much have laid it out that whoever doesn't agree with you that ALL agents are golden MUST be idiots and morons.  At least, that's the way it's coming across.  Besides, taken by itself, it's a fair question, maybe just worded wrong.  If something sells that quick do you think that it was priced too low?  Your answer might have gone something like, "No, it was accurately priced.  The property was marketed well, ...this is a hot market, ... I had buyers waiting.... etc., etc."  Just a thought.

I'll promise 99.999999% of real estate agents DO NOT think they "do little." In fact...most of would be extremely insulted by such comments as they know just how hard they work.

I agree.  No one wants to think that they "do little."  Heck, I do alot myself.  I shuffle paperwork, make phone calls, reply to emails, show property, drive around looking for property, play with the kids, answer phone calls, play golf, read the paper, surf the internet, answer questions, ask questions, sleep, etc.
But let's be real here.  What RE investors, AND RE agents, do is NOT hard work.  Laying brick or roofing a house in 95% heat, working 12 hour shifts in a factory until you can't lift your arms, dodging bullets and bombs overseas, now, that's HARD work.  Hell, working at McDonald's is harder than what we do.  Our problems and solutions may be harder, but the work isn't.
BTW, a curious person might wonder what you did, as the listing agent, that caused your last 3 properties to be sold within 5 days.  An answer helps two ways. First, it may give others ideas that will help them sell faster, and second, it will show what an agent does do.  Again, just a thought.

In closing, I'd be very, very careful about who I accepted free advice from--it could cost you dearly--I've seen it before.

I agree. So have I.

When in doubt, use the services of a professional

Yep.  Agree again.

and ignore the Internet Boo Birds who paint entire professions with a broad negative brush.

I'll agree with this one, too, so long as you include yourself in with those to ignore.  This is, afterall, the internet, and you've just called everyone here "Boo Birds" (among other things).  I believe that that would qualify as a pretty broad negative brush, don't you think?

I don't understand why this has to be black and white?
ALL agents don't do their job well.  ALL agents don't do their job poorly.  I don't believe that it's anywhere near equal.  Sales, of any type, is a tough job.  Only  a few find niches in their career and rise to the top.  Most languish in a middle ground of okay work, getting by, so to speak.  That is, the ones that stay with it.

However, THAT isn't even the real issue here.  The real issue is that it's become an agent vs. investor war.  Agent's don't like investors that use "creative" deals (sub2, lease/options, etc.) because they don't see a way to get paid.  Agents also don't like investors who sell there on property, again because there is no $$$ for the agent, and if the investor would only list it, they would sell for more $$$.
Investors always think that they are the "best" deal for the seller and the agent just is presenting the offer, or listing the property too high, etc. even when that's not true.  Investors always think that they can sell their property better, or faster, or easier, when again, that's not always the case.

Enough said?  I hope so because I'm done.

Later days,

Raj

[kbrandau]

MikeB_AL

WOW!!!  It just took me forever to read through this string of posts, and I'm not sure now if your question was answered.

If you use a flat fee service with a discount broker to list your property on the MLS, and it's posted to the local MLS and to Realtor.com.

From my talking with Realtor.com about 2 years ago, they are connected to all MLS's and every MLS posts to their website on Realtor.com.

Now, if you wish to offer an agent a commission based on providing a qualified buyer to the deal, and handling the details required to get the buyer all the way through the transaction, then pay it.

If you show your property to a potential buyer who is not represented by an agent GREAT! keep it that way, if they have a buyer's representation agreement with an agent, you might need to find out exactly how it is set up, are they paying the agent directly for their assistance, or is the agent expected to be paid from the seller?  If they came to you directly without the use of an agent, you are under no obligation to pay anyone.  Now, if you had the MLS listing service put a commission to be paid to the buyer's agent, you'll pay the agent's commission if they prepare the offer/contract that's accepted.

Now to address Mike's defensive position, he and I have gone round and round about the integrity and ethical behavior of Realtors before.  As a Realtor there is a code of ethics, and in the code of Ethics it addresses how to speak of other Realtors, and that is to not speak badly of them or their business.

I addressed my experiences, not using any names of course, and he disagreed with "my individual experience" with other agents.  I could go on and on about the illegal, and unethical behavior, but instead of continuing to say bad things, I'll just do not defend bad behavior.

If you feel that a real estate agent or Realtor has broken the law or their code of ethics, I urge you to report them to the local board of Realtors and also to the state licensing board or commission that issues their license.  This will send a message to the rest of the group or profession that their conduct or incompetence will not be tollerated, and you are only doing this to protect the rest of the public from that "PERSON" not the whole profession.

What do you think about used car sales people?  Good or Bad?  What do you think about fellow RE Investors? Good or Bad?  

Everyone is doing it for the money!!!!  If you agree to pay full commissions, full price, than you haven't learned anything!

Everything is negotiable, and don't let them tell you any different.  If a broker tells you he's required to charge 6% commission, and it's not negotiable, then go to another broker.

Here in Texas a commission can not be set, it is negotiated at the time the listing contract is taken or before. (Please don't disagree with this, it's the law!)

I myself as a real estate agent and real estate investor (investor 1st) which gave me the knowledge and experience to pass the exam on the first try.  Does that qualify me to be a great Realtor? NO! It qualified me to be a great investor with a real estate license.

This forum is full of useful information, and I agree that Mike loves to debate any smear against his profession, because he takes it "PERSONALLY", even though he shouldn't, he can't control the behavior of others, and can barely control his own.  I'm sure he presents himself as a professional at what ever he does.  But he does love to defend the "profession" even though he is only one person who thinks that its flawless.  

Being a retired detective, I am one who is skeptical of everyone, until they prove themselves to me.  I do my research first, ask lots of questions, and in time you do come to the correct answer.  

This forum is suppose to be just for that, to SHARE information, answer questions to the best of one's ability, and to help others so they don't make the same mistakes as I have made. They really are costly.

I hope that I have at least answered your initial question.  But the next step is to ask the discount broker if his MLS postings appear in Realtor.com.  Or ask him to email you a copy of his MLS listing agreement, filled out, and read it.  

Every state has different laws, and that means different ways of doing business in Real Estate.

Good Luck!

Kirk

[Buckeyes]

Kirk,

Thanks a lot, you absolutely answered my question.  BTW, my desire at no point in time is to not pay someone who has brought value and earned money.  I'm in sales, I understand earning a commission, I just don't want to pay money that is not earned.  You covered all scenarios.  

Steve

[Infowell]

As a Realtor there is a code of ethics, and in the code of Ethics it addresses how to speak of other Realtors, and that is to not speak badly of them or their business.

Before, turning your ire on me Kirk, take a long look into the mirror.

I've read and reread my posts over & over. They started off informative, and quickly degraded into a more, and more defensive posture...that's because myself & my chosen profession were repeatedly attacked by a few.

Others have alluded to this problem as well...there's a total lack of respect for real estate professionals on this site (not just real estate agents).

But he does love to defend the "profession" even though he is only one person who thinks that its flawless.

Never said is was flawless, however, you were one of the first--Kirk--to bring to my attention this negative posture toward Agents, and you appear to be a quite contradictory individual: You speak of The Code Of Ethics now...while previously stating that Real Estate Agents (not to mention Loan Officers) "earned much & did little for their efforts." (paraphrasing).

I questioned how, not only your clients, but also other Agents in your region would feel about your conflicted, and inaccurate views (if they knew). Afterall, I wouldn't want to engage the services of someone who felt they were making a bundle off me while doing very little.

Furthermore, I wouldn't want to work for an individual who felt I did little, and was overpaid.

I arrived here just recently, but find I'm more often defending my chosen industry and, therefore, I'm unable to offer valuable advice. That being said, it's proving to be a terrible waste of my time.

I again, caution those reading these boards to be VERY CAREFUL about whom they choose to take advice from. Hire the services of an experienced professional rather than seeking direction from those on the Internet.